did I bite off more than I can chew? Uncombining...

[kvmck]

A few weeks ago I separated my oldest two into different programs-- keeping dd in Bigger(we've about 1 1/2 -2 months left) and moved ds into Preparing. Both kids are loving it, esp my son. I enjoy the individual time I have with the kids and we still have over an hour of stuff we do together.

But I have been having problems! Some of my problems are with scheduling. I feel so un-organized, we haven't gotten into a good flow and my 4 year old has almost zero attention/time/school with me now which is creating a small "monster" in her b/c she is the personality who really needs some good quality time with mom. I thought I'd have "more" time since my son is doing things independently and I'm giving my daughter a few things to do independently as well... but instead I feel as if I'm going crazy with all 3 kids wanting my attention at the same time. I haven't been able to figure out a good way to do it.

Another thing that is contributing to my feeling of being overwhelmed is that my oldest daughter is quite slow in getting her work done. She is not slow b/c she is having trouble with the work, she is just slow paced and marches to a different drummer. One example of this is that I have had the olders do dishes together and my son gets so irritated b/c his sister is singing and doing twirls while putting away the dishes... which of course makes her slow. Today, when looking up a Bible verse in Luke, it took her almost 2 minutes to find it.. she knows exactly where Luke is, she was just humming a tune.... I have tried to put time constraints on her (but I haven't done this since last year) previously and it stresses her out to the point where she just breaks down and can't function b/c she is just sure that she won't have enough time to finish. I suppose she could be a prefectionist and yet she does sloppy work fairly often and it doesn't bother her until later. She is my child who, last month, re-copied her entire dictation notebook (during her free time) because she didn't like how it looked.

Does anyone else struggle with this and have any suggestions of how to fit everyone together? DS is doing preparing, DD1 Bigger and DD2 is supposed to be doing LHTH and I have started some handwriting and phonics with her as well b/c she really, really wants to(although we haven't done this with her in any scheduled way in over a month).

[holyhart]

I'm not sure I have any wisdom to offer, but I will lift you up in prayer and ask that our Father would give you the guidance and wisdom you need. I'm sure that there will be some ladies with lots of lovely advice.

[amysconfections]

You know I almost split my older two up doing Bigger and Preparing next year. As I was looking on the boards for advice I found Carrie mentioned that they did not recommend doing two of the intense guides together. Bigger and Preparing would fit that category. THey are so teacher dependent and take lots of time. When you look at the time it takes for both it's a wonder you have time to do anything but school.
For us, my decision came down to the fact that I have more than two children. I have to do what works best for us as a whole family, not necessarily where my children fit perfectly in a program. So, for us that is combining my oldest and keeping them together. I beef it up for my oldest using extensions and make sure my youngest isnt' dragging along. I am mom to 4 not 2. My younger two need alot of attention too.

That's just what works for us. It's not too late to go backwards. You either need a very detailed rigid schedule to keep you on track or a change of plans. The only way to make those two programs work together is to schedule them. Make sure you leave extra time for you dd that is slower and also add in time to work with your younger. If you actually created a real (not dream) schedule you might see that it won't work for you. Or it may work for you as long as you stick to it.

Hope this helps some.

[GinainMD]

My only advice would be to school the youngest first. She would get that one on one time with Mom and than you could move onto the olders. I know that with my 4 year old, and 2 year old, this works best and than she is ready to do something else when it is time for the older girls to do their work. HTH

[Mom2Monkeys]

I agree about scheduling the youngest first. Works wonders! Then be sure you schedule the independent work foe the dawdled last for we day. You could let your non-dawdled do independent work while you work with your DD on the teacher directed and then Semi independent boxes. Then switch. That way she can take all the time she wants with those independent boxes and it won't use up YOUR time. also, you could let her bookmark the Pages in the bible each weekend in prep for the week. and be sure to use a bookmark for grammar, math, and other books you're currently reading so she's not thumbing through singing her little tune wasting time there. I definitely Know what you mean bc my DD9 is the exact same way. Drives me and DH batty that she dances and sings while putting dishes away or sweeping and takes. for. ever.

[my3sons]

Hi Kristen! From what you've shared so far, it sounds like your ds is doing well with PHFHG. I would continue to help him become familiar with the PHFHG guide by using it as his own. He should be reading his directions in the guide, getting out his materials, completing his "I" work independently, his "S" work with you getting him started but finishing it independently, and his "T" work with you by his side. He should also be learning to hand in his work and clean up his materials as he works through his plans. These are the skills that he will be able to acquire more and more as he works through the guide, and they are what makes it possible for you to come alongside your oldest dd and younger dd, both of which need you more now.

For your oldest dd, being able to manage time and work on task are skills to be learned that take some dc more time than others. My middle ds has needed more time to grow in these skills than my oldest ds did. I think this is fairly common. I would back off to doing Bigger Hearts half-speed with your dd, doing the left side of the guide one day and the right side the next, and come alongside her to help her learn these time management and attention to task skills. It helped my ds for me to print off the approximate times each box should be taking in Bigger Hearts, and schedule his work time accordingly, setting the timer for each box and working alongside him to help him realize about how long things should be taking him. Here is a link to those time allotments:
BHFHG time it takes:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=702

You can easily choose to do 1 Storytime with everyone instead of 2. That is an easy way to economize time. I am wondering how there is an hour of together work though? What are you doing with everyone for an hour? This actually may be adding time to the day as well. I have found teaching blocks of time seem to really help me teach multiple guides. I used to begin by teaching my littlest son first, but this year I began teaching my oldest ds first, and letting my younger 2 dc just play with one another. This has worked so well for us. It gives my oldest ds more time to do this work, and he has the most work to do, so this fit us well. I think it's a good idea to try some different ways of setting up your day to see what works best for your family. For some families, beginning with the littlest works the best, for other beginning with the oldest works the best, and this can change from year to year based on the ages of the family over all. Here's a copy of our schedule, in case it could help you out somehow:


With your dc being just a few years apart, you could go back to the combining them, but I am thinking that separating them has shown some important skills your dd would benefit from gaining. If your dd is struggling with completing the work in a timely fashion within Bigger Hearts, I am thinking that PHFHG will just be more of a struggle. It also sounds like your ds is ready to fly and feels frustrated waiting for younger sister to finish. You will know best what to do here, but I think exploring the separate guides for a bit longer is worthwhile. If you get a chance to share how your day is going more specifically, we can brainstorm in more detail too! It is an adjustment to do multiple guides, and I have found a schedule at that point is a real benefit. I hope something here helps, but just remember starting anything new takes time and requires some transitioning. We can help with the details if you get a chance to share more of your day's happenings. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

[VAmomto4]

Grrr, I wrote a long post and it disappeared. Long story short, my dd7 sounds a lot like you middle daughter. Some ideas:

Timers--she generally dislikes time constraints, too, but she thinks racing to beat a timer is a fun game.
What subject does she get the most distracted in? For us it is math. Math is scheduled before outside time. If she doensn't finish then she has to bring a clipboard outside and sit beside me and do her math. Bummer
Make a concentrated effort to praise behavior/character you want to encourage. It is so easy to forget, but it does pay off.
Do your boxes in the same order every day if you can. We have to have a routine that is second nature for my dd, otherwise she wanders into lalaland.
Workboxes for you little-puzzles, counting bears, paper and pens, coloring books, stickers, do a dot markers, tangrams, etc...

HTH

[rockhouse]

I also can't comment on what you should do about the combining/uncombining, but here is how I finally have a hold of my dd7's ability to waste time. I purchased a kitchen timer. We made a deal to do school together for 30 minutes, then take a 30 minute break. During the 30 minutes that we are doing school, she must be completely focused and on task with her school work. If she begins to waste time, then I simply grab the timer and add 5 minutes to her work time, thus taking 5 minutes off of her free time. So now she will be working for me for 35 minutes and only get a 25 minute break. This changed my dd overnight!!! She now stays on task without me having to touch the timer at all

I also printed off a sticker chart from the internet to help her do her work on her heart attitudes about doing things that are unpleasant. A verse she hears often is that we should do our work heartily, as "unto the Lord." There are four blank spaces to write your goals. Our goals that we are working on related to school are: 1) no whining during school, 2) staying on task during school (this one goes along with the timer. If I have to move the timer back more than one time, then she loses this sticker), 3) writing neatly (this was a biggie, she would rush just to get done!), 4) having a good attitude. Across from the four categories are a row where you have space to put 6 star stickers. She gets a star sticker each day, for each goal she meets. At the end of the six days, I see which goals she got all of her stickers for during those six days. She gets a dollar each goal she has successfully met all six days (at the most she can only earn $4). She can spend her dollars at the dollar aisle at Target or at the Dollar Tree, but one dollar must go in the offering at church.

This has worked well for us dealing with school related issues!

[kvmck]

Thank you ladies for your replies, they have been helpful.
Julie, I LOVE your schedule and I can actually just replace your kids names with mine b/c even though my oldest is doing a different program then your oldest it seems to match up well. One question though-- when is your oldest doing DITHOR? Is that in the rotating LA box at 8:15? And I can see that a major reason for our frustration is that we sleep in Gotta change that habit.. my DH has been unemployed for quite a while but when he was working he'd be up and out of the house by 6:30am which then would get the rest of us up and going as well. Now, b/c my husband is a night owl we stay up late and the older kids, although in their rooms, stay up fairly late reading and listening to books on tape. That extra 2 hours of sleep in the morning throws us off and then makes me feel rushed in the morning.. which most likely gets everyone stressed.

Our hour of together time comes from Bible reading (we are reading the Bible through together and this can take 20 minutes b/c the kids usually want to discuss things we have read), doing Bigger storytime together, dictation and grammar. I definitely need to shorten this time up. My oldest daughter likes having a schedule to follow so I think if I copy Julie's schedule and make appropriate changes to it then post it and give up copy to the kids that she will really like that. Today it took us 1/2 hour to do 8 math problems together which then affects the whole rest of the day and schedule and I think that is the main thing that frustrates me! She really struggles. In fact, I was thinking earlier of trying to incorporate the DVD teaching from Math U See into her school to see if that would help. We used to do the timer thing (until our timer's battery was lost and I forgot about it) and I think that could work for anything except math. My son wants to get everything done so he can do what he wants. My daughter just doesn't have that "drive". And the thing about encouraging her and saying good things... I must confess I get so irritated that I forget to do that. Sometimes when I think of her I think that she would fit perfectly into a Jane Austen novel as the girl who spends her time drawing, reading, painting, playing music,singing, dancing, riding horses and walking in the gardens

My son is very independent and has been doing storytime and the history reading himself (except for Grandpa's Box b/c I want to read that one too ) and then does the questions/narration with me. He is so enjoying his independence and I can really trust him to do his work and do it well (for the most part --vocabulary may be his most dreaded. Actually DITHOR is but we haven't re-incorporated that into the schedule yet). He doesn't interrput often.. but when he does it always seems to be the worst possible timing.

Thank you ladies.. this has calmed my mind and given me confidence that I can do this

[my3sons]

Oh, I'm glad to be of some help, Kristen! It has taken me many, many years to figure out the scheduling that works well for our family, and then as the dc move through different stages, it changes. Keeps life interesting, right?!? I like your ideas of... giving your dd a schedule to follow, using a kitchen timer, getting started earlier, finding ways to encourage dd, shortening the hour morning time, helping ds know when he can and can't interrupt... all excellent ideas, and all things we have struggled with and realized we needed to do as well. I think you have a good plan coming together! For math, I wonder if a switch to another program would be helpful? Or, if setting a timer for around 30 minutes and just quitting no matter how far you got when it rings? Those are some ideas that came to mind at least. Oh, and you are right, DITHOR is part of the LA box. I do the boys together on "All Together Days" in the plans, but separate on the days that aren't all together. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

[Mumkins]

I combine and I do see it difficulty. My 2nd isn't up to where my oldest is. But with 5 kids and hopefully more, I need to save time.

You said your 2nd will be done Bigger in a month and a half. I can see separating a whole guide. But, I think it will get tiring on you to be reteaching stuff in only 1 1/2 months.

[Carrie]

Kristen,

From what you've shared so far, I would lean toward one of the following plans to help keep your day manageable and save your sanity with a workable plan for the long run.

1. Option 1: Do Bigger Hearts at half-speed with your daughter to finish it out, and then begin Preparing Hearts with her at half-speed after that. You could still do math and the language arts box daily so as to keep moving forward daily in those areas. In this scenario, your son would keep moving forward in Preparing Hearts at full-speed. Half-speed will also allow you to focus more on doing each assignment to its fullest with your daughter and keep you from rushing her. This way you can enjoy the journey much more until she grows in her skills.

2. Option 2: Keep both kiddos together in Bigger Hearts, since they are so close in guides, but start having your son do his own readings in science and history, while you still do the reading for your daughter in those areas. The same would be true when they head into Preparing Hearts together, as you could have your son do all his own readings, and just join you for follow-ups.

3. Option 3: Move your son to CTC, if he seems ready for more independence and can handle the level of readings and following written directions. CTC is written more directly to the child than Preparing Hearts and will free you to work with your daughter at whatever speed in Bigger and Preparing that she needs.

One of these three options is probably good to ponder in the long haul.

Blessings,
Carrie

[kvmck]

I had considered moving my son to CTC but that won't work for us financially right now.. I'm working on collecting all the books bit by bit (if I find them at a used bookstore) and saving my money at the same time so I can purchase all I need from HOD at one time. My son loves Preparing and so at this point I wouldn't want to take him out of it.

We are currently using and adjusting Julie's schedule and we all like it a lot. When my son first saw the schedule he almost cried because it looked like soooo much work to him and he thought he was going to have no free time. But he has now realized that we are getting done with school before lunch and has lots of free time, and we have almost no fighting/interruptions/frustration b/c everyone knows what they are supposed to be doing. My 4 year old is so happy that she has scheduled time with me, brother and sister and now causes very minimal problems... it is amazing.
My 9 yr old daughter is so excited to have a schedule that actually works for us. We still have a bit of a timing issue with her but it is helping her that we actually follow the schedule so she knows if she takes too much time chit-chatting and being in "la-la" land then she is going to have to do her work after lunch or wait until the next day, and since she'd like to finish Bigger by summer she is actually motivated to keep on moving. It almosts makes me think she was being so slow just to annoy her brother?? The other thing that has helped with her is that I took her to the bookstore to pick out a new math book.. she choose the sylvan super math book and has been doing that with no complaints (hopefully that will last). I am prepared to do Bigger half speed with her.. but she would like to finish by summer.

I am not sure how it will work to have 2 kids doing preparing next year. My daughter would start half speed and my son has been doing school 5 days a week so he will finish quite a bit before her and start the next level. I don't feel like it will be a lot of redundancy for me since so much of it is independent... its more the fact of sharing the TM that could be a problem.

Thank you all so much for your suggestions and prayers.

[my3sons]

Kristen - thanks so much for the update! I am so glad to hear that my schedule can work for someone else. I try to share it if I think it might be helpful, but I am fully aware it will not work for everyone. I am glad that you've found a version of it to make your own and that it is working! I think it sounds like everyone is moving right along - way to go, Mom. I agree that much of PHFHG becomes independent, and CTC on up moreso. I agree I don't think it will be a big deal for you to have the two of them somewhat close in what they are doing. The upper guides are just more independent, very appropriately so for those ages, so that teaching guides back to back is really not a big deal.

At lease with our dc, I've found when I redo the same guide with a younger ds it feels pretty different. The discussions in HOD require upper level thinking and do not have rote answers, but rather answers that require dc to draw upon all they have taken in and mesh it together to answer questions. As their experiences and opinions, as well as what they personally took CM style from readings vary, so do their answers, and therefore our discussions are varied as well. I love this, and find our conversations to be as interesting and intellectual to me as they are to my sons. Going through PHFHG with 2 different dc will produce 2 different experiences, yet the same sound education grounded in excellent living books and the Lord.

I am thinking that since you mentioned dd may have been working slow to possibly bother brother (I have seen this replayed at my house in various situations), that it would be sooooo worth it to get one more PHFHG manual. If they each had their own, they wouldn't be waiting on the other. Also, if your dd is at the beginning of the PHFHG manual, and your ds is nearer the end, they won't be needing a lot of the same books. If you start your dd half-speed especially, the book sharing shouldn't be a problem. But the guide sharing, that may be one thing that is a little harder to overcome. If funds permit, I think I'd get the extra one, but of course you wouldn't have to. Have a wonderful day, I'm so glad things are clipping right along- enjoy your afternoon and evenings being more free too - hooray!

In Christ,
Julie

[Carrie]

Kristen,

Thanks so much for sharing an update! It sounds like you have a good plan going and that you are finding your fit. I agree that it will work well for you to head into Preparing with your daughter at half-speed and continue your son at full-speed. I think following your daughter's pacing will work well there. It sounds like you have them placed correctly and are reaping the benefits!

I wasn't completely sure on their levels, and you would know better than me what their right level is. If you have them correctly placed, you will know it, and it sounds like you do. You will be fine then, as skill level is one of the more important factors for the fit. Just keep on going and adjust the pacing for your daughter as needed. Praise the Lord for this board, where we can discuss options as you journey to find your best fit. Minds pooled together always come up with the best plans.

Blessings,
Carrie