Science in RTR.....

[Lynnw]

My ds is complaining a bit about the science in RTR.... so this is as much as prayer request for discernment on my part (and change of heart on his) as much as anything. He generally has a good attitude and does the rest of his work happily (if not terribly enthusiastically). History has always been his first love. Science has always been the weak spot of our homeschool though we read through the Astronomy book several years back.

Also, let me say that it is quite unfair for me to share this issue without telling how much I am loving our HOD guides this year - how much fruit the Bible study is bearing, how much my youngers are enjoying LHFHG, how thankful I am that Bigger is keeping me from neglecting my middle one, how thankful I am for the integration of various skills into the wonderful books I probably would have chosen anyway (had many on my shelf already!), how much I can already see my children growing, how much I love that HOD has made all these decisions and set the standard for how much work is needful.

So, that said, I'm puzzled at my ds's lack of enthusiasm for the science. Last night he (respectfully) accused me of not liking it either, which surprised me. I hadn't really even formed an opinion to tell you the truth. I guess I look at it like it's part of the package, I love the package, it gets science off my back - good. done. And with my dh deployed and 5 kiddos needing me and science is an Independent box, I'm not communicating a lot enthusiasm about it. So, one thought I had was to make science a "Teacher" box and try to encourage greater interest.

Other thoughts and prayers MOST welcome!

Thanks,
Lynn

[deltagal]

Hi Lyn,

Could you share a bit more? Is it the work, the experiments, the reading, the writing, the topic? At what point in his day does he do Science? Does he do any of it? Or does he simply get to the box and balk? If so, does he do his other boxes well and without complaining? We could offer input if we knew more...

[Lynnw]

Hi Lyn,

Could you share a bit more? Is it the work, the experiments, the reading, the writing, the topic? At what point in his day does he do Science? Does he do any of it? Or does he simply get to the box and balk? If so, does he do his other boxes well and without complaining? We could offer input if we knew more...

Florence,
Thank you for your questions! I had to discuss with him a bit more before I could answer - so this is helpful. He does his other boxes generally without complaining. I would love to see more enthusiasm from him, but overall I can't say he has a bad attitude. Generally, he may complain *some* but probably just needs to get a little further into the routine of school and the guide. We have talked about the quality of his work and somedays I see improvement. There's definitely room for more. Science has ended up at the end of the day several times - and sometimes I have done it with him to help him finish better. It is the box he most often comes to me either for 1)clarification of what he has to do or 2)to ask if I will do it with him. When asked about what he does or doesn't like about it, he says he doesn't mind reading, but it's boring and he wishes the experiments were more exciting. Also, he says he would be interested in a different kind of science. On the other hand, he *does* think it would be cool to have a telescope. My summary of this is that he doesn't mind reading, would like more hands on, and though he didn't say it - maybe less writing (although I'm all for it !) I *did* show him the science from CTC as an option (since we didn't use HOD last year, he has not done CTC or its science), but I told him the format would be similar - reading, answering questions (vs. the written narration in RTR), an oral narration, a notebook page, a project of some kind. He was not jumping up and down at that option. Part of his issue may be that we just haven't spent a lot of time on science in the past so just adding this much "work" for the subject may seem a burden. We used to participate in a co-op that provided one science experiment/project per week that they wrote up (but would have had help knowing what to write as they did it together) with a lab sheet similar to the one in HOD. And I often assigned him to read "nature study" books (i.e. some of the ones used in Ambleside Online, for example) - though narrating off of these was extremely sporadic.

Okay, that was WAY more than you wanted to know.

My current answer to him is that I will agree to make Science a "teacher" box (i.e. I will be more a part of it with him) for awhile. And we will see how that goes before I give him any other answer. I would be willing to do the CTC science instead - I can see that it would be a benefit to him. ONe of the few years we did do well with science at home was the year I used the Astonomy book - so I don't have a problem switching to a different subject - but I also dont want to make a knee jerk reaction and still have the same problem. I also think that other sciences (such as chemistry or physical science) would give more opportunities for hands on experiments, but I'm not convinced that that's a good idea yet. I'd rather use HOD as written though I know it is SO flexible to allow for personal preferences in many areas.

Thanks for reading ALL that! And for helping me think it through!

[pjdobro]

Florence,

I'm not for sure if this is helpful or not, but could he be finding the reading not interesting because he has read this before? Am I understanding correctly that you've done this Astronomy book before? If that's the case maybe the information is just not interesting because he studied it in the same way before. It might be helpful to skip this book and move onto the later books in the guide or perhaps substitute in a different book. It seems I read somewhere a post where someone had already used the Astronomy book and was looking for a substitution so you might be able to search and find more info. I could have just dreamed that though .

[Lynnw]

Patty,
Yes, (although I'm Lynn, not Florence ). But it was ~3 years ago that we used the astronomy book, so I thought it would seem "new" again - Maybe he made plenty of connections the first time, LOL. Thanks for pointing out the possibility of substituting if we've already used the book. I'll search for past threads on that!

Lynn

[1shortmomof4]

I, unfortunately, don't have a lot of great ideas with regards to fixing the science. My dd is loving it but she hasn't read this book before. Actually, she hasn't said she is loving it but I'm finding her talking a lot about what she is reading so I think she likes it. I will say, first, we are just finishing up week 2 but I've found that RTR is very heavy! and my dd is a 9th grader. There is a lot of reading! and the content isn't necessarily an easy read -especially with the names of people and places long ago that take some time to either figure out how to pronounce, where is it on a map or make up a name that sounds similar (kwim?) I am actually reading to her the history reading for now (which I'm enjoying because it is something I've never learned myself because of growing up overseas all of my life) and we engage in great conversation. If he is a crafty-type (some boys are but I know my 3 boys are not), there are lap books you could do to break from some of the writing. You could just read the book for now and forgo the extra writing and only do experiments that you both agree sound fun. My dd knew what an eclipse was so we moved right along -- plenty of time for other experiments along the way. There are a lot of websites that offer lots of info on astronomy. My older ds used to visit the NASA website and check out the photo from the day - maybe you could incorporate something using that? There are some great videos through Answers in Genesis on astronomy that might be interesting, too. Add a different dimension to the study. Perhaps pick a term from the day's reading and have him do a little research - he has an interest in telescopes - research that and the different kinds, benefits, costs, etc. I know it is so much easier to just check off the boxes but sometimes a little adjustment is necessary - the CTC idea sounded great, too. Sometimes it just takes a little time for skills to catch up and who knows, maybe in a few weeks, he'll be back to wanting to do it all.

Heidi

[deltagal]

Lynn,

Thanks for the information. I'm pondering your response and have some thoughts, BUT first I have one more question. According to the placement chart - does he actually place in RTR? In other words, are his skills where they need to be to handle the amount of work.

[Lynnw]

Deltagal/Florence,
You are as wise as Julie and Carrie, LOL. As I re-read the placement chart now, I would say he *just* fits into RTR. Reading is no issue - he can read very challenging books, no problem. Writing - 8-12 sentence narrations are stretching him a little. He is ready to begin basic outlining - we did a little bit of single level outlining together last year. I have him in the easier dictation level in RTR because spelling has been a weakness and I thought that made sense. Grammar - he knows basic diagramming and is just beginning to catch some of his own writing mistakes and beginning to learn how to apply grammar to writing lessons. He might actually have been a better fit with CTC, but we had just covered ancients last year - even using Story of the Ancient World! And he is such a history buff, I couldn't see having him repeat that.

In some ways, I think there is nothing in RTR that is too hard for him, on the other hand the overall volume of work is an increase from my usual hodge-podging, hopping around, second guessing myself, and generally falling into the pattern of too much reading and not enough output.

All of these reasons (and more) are why I decided to go back to half pace.

Thanks again for reading all these thoughts!
Lynn

[deltagal]

HI Lynn,

I have a feeling your issues may stem more from the guide being a little too much for him. Ideally, I would put him in a different guide. Maybe even, ....Bigger with your 8.5 year old and give your 11.5 year old the extensions with written, oral and pictorial narrations and DITHOR (3-4 days /wk.), grammar and math on his level. Then, perhaps, you could go back to full pace with both of them together. I know the oldest places higher than the BIgger guide, BUT ultimately I'm thinking this would give YOU the time you need to work with your oldest and your 8.5 year old and help them develop the skills that will make the higher level guides so much more enjoyable, and it would give the flexibility I recall you desired, as well, because they could "keep up" with the work. The Bigger guide is loaded with good skill development, and once you add in DITHOR and extensions you've got a full load of reading (not to mention writing) that he would enjoy. He could still use the guide independently for history readings, etc. If you really want him to have his own guide, then I might suggest Preparing, because it will have interesting subject matter for him and is also great at developing skills and still not quite so much work as CTC and RTR.

I honestly wouldn't consider doing RTR with the CTC science, simply because I think you'll be struggling with this placement issue heretofore and it might be the undoing for both of you. It seems as if all the guides have a gentleness in the beginning, getting the student ready for a greater level of expectation. If he's struggling a bit now...

OF course, there are many other options, this is just one. I've just found that it seems to spoil the mastery of skill development found in the HOD guides, if you have to start tweaking them to fit a child who really doesn't fit. I've also found that it is easier to expect a higher level of performance (and more satisfying for the student) in an easier guide than vice versa. Just some thoughts...

[8arrows]

I like the idea of making science a teacher box for a little while so that you can be excited about it with your child. I would also move it to earlier in the day. Of course there are always lot of options.

[Lynnw]

Deltagal/Florence,
Thank you SO much for taking the time to read everything I wrote, contemplate and suggest a change for us. I do see some wisdom in your point of view. In fact, when I was contemplating placement I even considered combining the older two in Preparing. As you mentioned, I also saw benefits to doing a slightly easier guide. And I saw benefits to these two getting to be together for their school work, inspite of the age difference, because they are such close brothers. I will consider your thoughts and pray about it - and generally ponder his placement again.

Thank you!
Lynn

[Lynnw]

I like the idea of making science a teacher box for a little while so that you can be excited about it with your child. I would also move it to earlier in the day. Of course there are always lot of options.

8arrows,
Thank you for your encouragment. I think this is what I will do for now. I have re-made a schedule so that whether we are doing the "left" side or the "right" side - my time with him is the same everyday, so I don't have to rearrange everyone else's day depending on which side of the guide we are on. And on the day we do the right side, I'm putting science first. I'm hoping this will give me an opportunity to see if he can grow into this guide or if I have mis-placed or mis-judged what the issue is.

Thanks!
Lynn

[Lynnw]

I, unfortunately, don't have a lot of great ideas with regards to fixing the science. My dd is loving it but she hasn't read this book before. Actually, she hasn't said she is loving it but I'm finding her talking a lot about what she is reading so I think she likes it. I will say, first, we are just finishing up week 2 but I've found that RTR is very heavy! and my dd is a 9th grader. There is a lot of reading! and the content isn't necessarily an easy read -especially with the names of people and places long ago that take some time to either figure out how to pronounce, where is it on a map or make up a name that sounds similar (kwim?) I am actually reading to her the history reading for now (which I'm enjoying because it is something I've never learned myself because of growing up overseas all of my life) and we engage in great conversation. If he is a crafty-type (some boys are but I know my 3 boys are not), there are lap books you could do to break from some of the writing. You could just read the book for now and forgo the extra writing and only do experiments that you both agree sound fun. My dd knew what an eclipse was so we moved right along -- plenty of time for other experiments along the way. There are a lot of websites that offer lots of info on astronomy. My older ds used to visit the NASA website and check out the photo from the day - maybe you could incorporate something using that? There are some great videos through Answers in Genesis on astronomy that might be interesting, too. Add a different dimension to the study. Perhaps pick a term from the day's reading and have him do a little research - he has an interest in telescopes - research that and the different kinds, benefits, costs, etc. I know it is so much easier to just check off the boxes but sometimes a little adjustment is necessary - the CTC idea sounded great, too. Sometimes it just takes a little time for skills to catch up and who knows, maybe in a few weeks, he'll be back to wanting to do it all.

Heidi

Heidi,
I just realized I never acknowledged your post. Thank you for sharing some great ideas. As I continue to pray about whether I need an "overall" change for this ds, or just a little more enthusiasm from me to help spark his, I will come back to some of your great suggestions.

Thanks!
Lynn

[pjdobro]

I'm so sorry I got your name wrong Lynn!!! It sounds like you have gotten some great ideas already. I found the post that discussed repeating the Astronomy book: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5934&start=0&st=0&s ... =astronomy Perhaps it will help you as you ponder your options.

[Lynnw]

Patty - no problem at all! And thanks for the link!

For anyone following this thread.... I really think it may come down to loneliness. My dh is deployed, we are no longer in a co-op that we have been in the last three years. I think that these two oldest sons maybe just need to do school together and that my oldest needs more interaction with me with his school work - not because of ability/level/placement - but just because he does. I'm going to read about the extensions for Bigger and search the board for "beefing up" ideas and keep praying!

Thanks again for help!
Lynn