Need a little advice...

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Tree House Academy
Posts: 1078
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:40 pm
Location: Tennessee

Need a little advice...

Post by Tree House Academy » Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:32 am

My ds6 (almost 7) is reading well (4th grade level and above). He is a great reader and we did two years of phonics work, so he can usually sound out words he doesn't know (not always, but most of the time). HOWEVER, I have noticed that when trying to spell a word that has two vowels in the middle (in particular) or spelling words that had odd spellings, he seems lost. It is like he doesn't remember the phonics when it comes to spelling. I am not sure how big a deal this is as when we did phonics, it was to learn to read, not to spell. He still uses his phonics in reading. I printed out a reference sheet (the double vowels and when to use them) to hang up by his desk as a reminder, but is this all I need? Should I be giving him spelling rules to memorize as we go through the lists in Beyond? I am asking here because I want to use the CM method 100% and I don't want to add anything that is going to make his day stressful or mess up the good thing we have going with the CM method. I don't want to add new programs or anything of the like. I want to use what we are using to the fullest extent.

He has never had formal spelling as we did not do it last year with Little Hearts. He finished phonics last year instead. He has been reading well since he was pretty young and last year tested, like I said, at or above 4th grade level. He is reading books that my 11 year old has just finished reading! :)
~Rebecca~

ds13(8th) - Rev to Rev w/ TT Pre-Algebra, R&S English 6, CLE Reading 8, Rosetta Stone French
ds9 (4th) - Preparing Hearts, TT Math 4, R&S English 3, CLE Reading 4, & Writeshop Jr.

We have completed LHFHG, BLHFHG, Bigger, CTC, & RTR.

water2wine
Posts: 2743
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:24 pm
Location: GA

Re: Need a little advice...

Post by water2wine » Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:10 pm

I have one that reads very high above her level. She was a poor speller and I could never understand why that was. I added some copywork and did dictation regularly and low and behold she can spell. I am all for the CM stuff. I do not understand it but it works. :D We had been through spelling programs and they did not help her spelling but when I completely embraced the CM method and really went for that I saw a big improvement. :D I did go for a little more than was in the program for her because she was actually older, but it worked. :wink:
All your children shall be taught by the LORD, and great shall be the peace of your children. Isaiah 54:13
~Six lovies from God~4 by blessing of adoption
-MTMM (HS), Rev to Rev, CTC, DITHR
We LOVED LHFHG/Beyond/Bigger/Preparing/CTC/RTR/Rev to Rev (HS)

my3sons
Posts: 10698
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:08 pm
Location: South Dakota

Re: Need a little advice...

Post by my3sons » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:24 pm

I can feel your concern here. I had it with my oldest who struggled with spelling initially, but took off with reading, much like your little guy. Is he doing Spelling List 1 and the LA plans for it in Beyond right now? He's quite young, and I think I'd probably do Spelling List 1 this year in Beyond, and Spelling List 2 next year in Bigger. That should give him a solid foundation for CM dictation. I used to L-O-V-E the spelling rules, but I have to tell you after 7 years of having dc in ps recite them back to me and turn around and spell atrociously, I've lost faith in them. The CM method of teaching spelling through copywork/dictation had me pretty skeptical at first, but I have to say that now that my ds is in RTR, his spelling scores are several grade levels above average (according to standardized testing). I take more stock in how they spell in the day to day than in standardized testing though, and in the day-to-day, his spelling is looking g-o-o-d (not perfect, but very good). :D HTH as you think through this!

In Christ,
Julie
Enjoyed LHTH to USII
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie

Tree House Academy
Posts: 1078
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:40 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: Need a little advice...

Post by Tree House Academy » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:07 pm

water2wine,

Thank you for sharing your experience with me. I am so glad to hear of the successes with this!


Julie,

Thank you so much for your response. He is doing List 2 in Beyond right now along with the LA plans (spelling words 4 days per unit, Grammar instruction 1 day a week, and poetry copywork daily). He does well with this and is not missing many words through the week. (Should I still drop back to list 1 though????) Where I started to notice the spelling issue was when he was writing his dad notes this weekend. He was spelling very poorly when it came to words with double vowels. Even when I would tell him it should have a vowel set, he couldn't remember which ones.

My older son had the same issue as your older. He could memorize the spelling lists and regurgitate them, but could never remember them later in his writing. This year, he still spells like a 4 year old (at the age of 11) and we have started doing only dictation (though we had to go back to Level 2 in the Bigger manual even though he is doing CTC for everything else) and his copywork. I can already see some changes. I pray this is the answer for him!
~Rebecca~

ds13(8th) - Rev to Rev w/ TT Pre-Algebra, R&S English 6, CLE Reading 8, Rosetta Stone French
ds9 (4th) - Preparing Hearts, TT Math 4, R&S English 3, CLE Reading 4, & Writeshop Jr.

We have completed LHFHG, BLHFHG, Bigger, CTC, & RTR.

Lynnw
Posts: 180
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:33 am
Location: Kentucky

Re: Need a little advice...

Post by Lynnw » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:40 am

Hi Rebecca,
Take what I say with a grain of salt because it is mostly speculation. :D I have used Spell to Write and REad a few years back with my oldest and since then I have used components of it when have taught each child to read. BUT, I'm thinking about what you said about vowel teams and I'm thinking (off the cuff) that spelling rules probably won't help a lot in determining which ones to use. Rules might help in relation to which ones to NOT use at the end of a word (ai - "two letter A that you may NOT use at the end of a word" vs. ay - "two letter A that you MAY use at the end of a word") but many times one or more vowel team could work without "breaking a rule" but still be incorrect spelling. Think of the many homophones we know - see and sea, deer and dear, or other words like great - sure "ea" can say A, but there is no rule broken if you spell it wrong like this "grait", or this "grate."

So, that's a long story to say that maybe spelling rules won't help the specific errors you notice your ds making? So, I vote for continuing the path your on, even though I don't have Julie's and Water2Wine's experience to back it up. :D
Married 19 years to Dh, Detective and Army Reservist: 1 tour in Iraq, 1 tour in Afghanistan
ds 12.5 (7th grade) RevtoRev
ds 9.5 (4th grade) Preparing

dd 8 (3rd grade) Beyond
ds 6 (K/1st grade) Beyond
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my3sons
Posts: 10698
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:08 pm
Location: South Dakota

Re: Need a little advice...

Post by my3sons » Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:07 am

Tree House Academy wrote:...He does well with this and is not missing many words through the week. (Should I still drop back to list 1 though????)...
Oh no then - he sounds accurately placed! I don't think I'd drop back to list 1, as he is doing just as he should with List 2. :D We did List 2 only with my middle ds, and he was doing the same as your ds. I just want to encourage you that with your ds being the age he is, I think that he is doing very well - even considering he misspells things in notes, lists, etc. of his own right now. One thing I noticed with both of our dc, once their copywork picked up, and they were truly able to do it all, their spelling within their own writing improved. Both of my dc started with doing just a small portion of the poetry copywork at first, but then grew into doing an entire poem a week. By the time they were doing the entire poem of copywork, their spelling within their own writing improved greatly. In fact, I took so much notice of that, that I had both of my dc do the poetry copywork in Bigger Hearts every week too (it is an option at that point). I do feel like that continued to improve their spelling, along with the markerboard writing Carrie suggests throughout the plans, which makes other subjects somewhat a form of dictation (as the child dictates to us) and copywork (as they copy from the marker board) too. :wink: We did this for DITHOR Student Book, for example. I also put a sticky note under the timeline captions noted in the Bigger Hearts plans, so my dc can copy right from there too. I do the same for headings of notebooking assignments. Copying from the guide seems to help them learn to copy from books, etc. I figure this is just one more way they can learn to see it correctly, and therefore recognize more and more when it "looks right". :D Of course, this is all more in Bigger Hearts, but in preparation for that, the poetry copywork of Beyond is a big precursor. :D

Even after my oldest ds had turned the corner and was writing quite well in his own writing, I do remember him making a grocery shopping list for his hunting trip that was atrocious. :shock: We had a talk about how good spelling is something to pay attention to all of the time, because the mind is like a camera, etc. - so when making a grocery list, as you add the thing to the list you are just out of, take a minute to check out how to spell the name of it on the package before you throw the empty one (I remember "marshmelos" distinctly :lol: ). We joked that since I was the grocery shopper, if I couldn't figure out what it was, I'd just add in a replacement that looked like that word, since spelling wasn't so important (I remember suggesting I might, for example, get "maraschino" cherries for his s'mores). :lol: I notice him copying from the empty packages/boxes of things more often now. :lol: Just to give you a gauge of my oldest ds's spelling - in his written narration of 10-12 sentences now, he misses around 3 words, and usually misses a few commas or apostrophes. I really followed the spelling tips for written narration spelling editing with him too. He grew into learning to use the history/science books for reference when spelling difficult words. Usually I just underline the error and have him try to figure it out. Sometimes he fixes it right away (like with the word "Romans", which he has unfortunately spelled "Romens" too often), and other times, it takes some searching for him to figure it out. He is not a perfect speller, but he is doing extremely well with it now. I think your dc will too, with the CM way of doing things, but it may take awhile, probably more time for your older ds and probably less time for your youngest. I am finding this myself. I didn't really understand CM when I started homeschooling, so I feel like probably my last ds will get the best homeschooling experience that is most CM authentic - I just keep understanding it more, which is to their benefit. :wink:

In Christ,
Julie
Enjoyed LHTH to USII
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie

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