Disappointed with Singapore's introduction to long division

[MommyInTraining]

Singapore 3A P. 57 starts to explain long division. It doesn't give very much explanation on how to do long division. Should I stay with MUS, so we get the WHY of it? I don't like that Singapore doesn't give a reason for why you do it the way it is done.

Do I need the HIG? Will that help me explain the why?

I struggled in math and MUS has made things clearer for me. I especially had trouble with long division and I am disappointed in the way Singapore presents it.

Please advise!

Thanks so much!

[Mom2Monkeys]

If you aren't sure how to explain it, then the HIG would certainly have more guidance for you to do so. I know there is more in there as you get into the upper elem levels. If you aren't intuitive in math, as in, conceptual math, (you might be great in math but have a hard time explaining the WHY part of it), then you would probably find the HIG helpful once Carrie's activities aren't there. I woudn't use it for every lesson, but when you get in a tough spot like now, it could come in handy.

[lovedtodeath]

I emailed you.

[Motherjoy]

We moved to MUS after Singapore 2B. I like MUS because it does explain the 'why' of math, I've even learned tons that I didn't know before. I've never looked into the Singapore instruction manuals, but they might help.

[lmercon]

I have found the home instructor's guides to be very helpful. They provide opening exercises, instructions, and games and activities to end the lesson. They also contain black line masters in the back for extra practice and drill. My ds is soooo mathy that I haven't needed to use them much at all. I taught fourth grade for quite a few years, and I find Singapore to be far superior to most traditional programs. I can't comment of MUS, but I think Singapore does a fabulous job of teaching the "why" in math. That was one of the main reasons why I chose the program. The textbook is not meant to the the teacher's manual, so if you find you need more guidance in explaining the concept, I'd recommend the HI guide.
hth,
Laura

[deltagal]

Hi there,

As some one who has 3 in Singapore at different levels I constantly am faced with the realtity that I have so much to learn. I do have some of the HIGs but they really don't help me with my fundamental issue, which is I need to "play" with the textbook information more with my children and explore the concepts as they are presented. In fact, the HIGs keep me from doing the very thing I need to do, which is just THINK and encourage my children to do the same.

On that note, I thought you might find this blog post thought-provoking as you ponder your alternatives:

http://www.thedailyriff.com/2010/03/sin ... osophy.php

Note: This is one of several blog posts on the Singaporean way. All GOOD reading and studying ; )

Take care.

[momofgreatones]

This is making me nervous...is Singapore hard to teach/hard for kids to understand? I was planning to switch to it this year after hearing rave review after review for years, and I really want my kids to understand math as well as possible. But I won't be able to keep up with it if it's hard to teach.

[Kathleen]

This is making me nervous...is Singapore hard to teach/hard for kids to understand? I was planning to switch to it this year after hearing rave review after review for years, and I really want my kids to understand math as well as possible. But I won't be able to keep up with it if it's hard to teach.

Monique,

I would say that the OPPOSITE is true! I've found that Singapore math is super-easy to teach. My background in elementary education would lead me to over-explain & make it more difficult if anything. (Which I'm resisting doing, by-the-way, and it seems to be working wonderfully! ) I haven't used all the levels of Singapore yet, but we've done the Earlybird ones for K and 2A, 2B, 3A, 3B....and have loved all of it! I think that if you just follow the guides for the hands-on in the early years and use the textbook as is, it's super-easy to do. I don't struggle with math, and it doesn't appear that any of my kids are either. But, I've used some other math curriculum and nothing I've seen seems as simply done - yet requiring the higher level of thought in the child to solve the problem. There isn't a 6-step guide for solving all of a certain kind of problem. Rather Singapore approaches it from a way that has the child "see" in real life why it is you're doing what you're doing with the numbers. This is far more memorable and sticks with them in my opinion. (Otherwise you end up with kids who can solve a string of problems today, but in the real world are clueless as to how to do math because they aren't told which set of steps to use to figure something out. )

Terri - I'm wondering if you stick with it if you will see that it's explaining why you're doing what you're doing in division. I know we found this to be true this year. I loved the way that it led us to talk about the problems like you're really dividing things between a certain number of people so that each one has the same amount - and then what's left over that can't be divided evenly. I really thought the "why" you do what you do was the strongest part of their presentation. Maybe you're used to another explanation that clicks better with you though. Although they were simple, the "bundles" that are used to illustrate in the Singapore textbook made total sense to my son as we went through long division this year. First, we looked at how many hundreds he could give to each "person"....then we broke up the remaining hundred bundle(s), along with the tens already there, to see how many tens we could give each "person"...then we broke up the remaining tens bundle(s), along with the ones already there, to see how many ones we could give each "person". Then what's left over that can't be evenly divided? It looks like you were just on the 1st day with long division. You'll be with it for awhile. If it were me, I'd stick with it as-is and see if it's making sense to your child before you jump back to something else.

Kathleen

[Mommamo]

I don't think it's hard to teach or understand, personally. In fact, I tend to find it fairly intuitive for both myself and my daughter. Not quite so much as RightStart (I've used both and am going back completely to Singapore for a couple of reasons), but still very logical. That being said, dd and I both think pretty "mathy." So it works for us. It is a different style of math thinking than most people are accustomed too, but there seem to be so many benefits to thinking this way. Still, I think it's worth taking a look at and giving it a try. The HOD guides do such a great job of teaching the concepts in the younger years. I haven't need the textbook or HIG guide yet, so someone else might be able to add about how well they help in explaining the concepts.

[MommyInTraining]

Although they were simple, the "bundles" that are used to illustrate in the Singapore textbook made total sense to my son as we went through long division this year. First, we looked at how many hundreds he could give to each "person"....then we broke up the remaining hundred bundle(s), along with the tens already there, to see how many tens we could give each "person"...then we broke up the remaining tens bundle(s), along with the ones already there, to see how many ones we could give each "person". Then what's left over that can't be evenly divided?
Kathleen

Kathleen,

Thanks so much for that explanation. That is a great way of looking at it. That helps.

OK, here is my issue with it as I continue to look at the textbook.

Please, if someone can help me understand, that would be great!

Let's take the problem 426 divided by 3.

426 divided by 3

You could give "1" hundred to each "person".

So, you put the quotient 1 above the 4.

Now, here is my issue/problem....

How do you explain WHY you put a 3 under the 4 and subtract?

Is it because that is how many hundreds you gave out....3? And, there is 1 left over?

Oooo, I think maybe I am getting it

So, if you bring down the 2, you have 12. Is that supposed to be the tens? So, the quotient is 4, but how do you use the explanation that you are giving 4 tens to each person? Because, that would come out to 40, .....oooo, oooo, ooooo!!!! The answer is 142...it is 4 tens!

OK, you see, my brain just needed a Kathleen jiggle !

Hey, I may be able to understand long divison!!!

I don't think I have it totally yet, but I am starting to see through the fog!

[Kathleen]

You've got it Terri!! When you're talking about the tens though, if it's 4 tens I wouldn't call it 40 as you're going through it as that could make it more confusing to the child, too. (Even though technically that's exactly right! ) We just looked at those little bundles to see how many we could divide in each place column without having to break them up. So in your example all three "people" could have 1 hundred, 4 tens, and 2 ones.

Kathleen

[water2wine]

We also love the way Singapore teaches. Truly I have taught division with three other programs and Singapore is by far the easiest because it has them understanding the concepts before they even get there and it sort of feels like it just happens. Having said that long division is one of the stumbling block issues that kids tend to sometimes bump up against. You've just taught them multiplication and now you are going to make them reverse it in steps. It is a little tricky if you think about it. But the thing I love about Singapore is it takes the "hard" things and really presents them really simply so that my kids do not even know it is supposed to be hard. I wish I had used it with all my kids.

Anyway one little tip that I found really helped us is to us colored chalk and a chalk board (or white board). Every step you put in a different color and then color all the numbers that are connected to that step the same. It really helped my kids see how the steps worked. It's nice if you are consistent with your colors as well. This really helped my kids that did not use Singapore get division. I do the same thing with multiplication of more than one digit. Helps a lot.

[momofgreatones]

Thanks for the encouragement ladies! Although it is too late for my older ones, I am excited to start Singapore with my boys this summer. I'm excited at the prospect of them being able to be proficient in math as they grow. Math was always difficult for my husband, and there were several career paths that he was interested in that he bypassed because he "couldn't" do the math involved. I don't want my sons handicapped by that, I want every option to be available to them because they know they can do it!

One question - my third daughter is just finishing up 5th grade math with another program. She's very much a show-me-how but doesn't get the why kind of girl. Would it be worth it to do a year or two with Singapore with her at this point, before she transitions into Teaching Textbooks? I'm wondering if it would be confusing for her to learn a new system, and if it wouldn't just be counterproductive for her at this stage of the game, with having to learn new methods. Also, I know that the upper levels of Singapore require more teaching time, and I'm not familiar with Singapore yet so I don't know how well I could teach her.

If any of you ladies could tell me what you think about that, I'd appreciate all advice!

Thanks so much!

[erdrmom]

Monique,

While I don't have a child at the 5th grade level of math just yet, my niece is there. I went to a convention in my state earlier this month and was looking at math programs for my sister to use with my niece. My sister doesn't feel she was "good" at math and I have taken more than my share to obtain my engineering degree (along with extra because I lost hours when I transferred schools). So, she wanted my opinion about where to go next.

I stopped at the Teaching Textbooks booth and frankly, I was not impressed. I found that their pre-algebra and algebra materials somewhat confusing. I found the pages to be visually "cluttered" and hard to follow. I continually hear people rave about the greatness of this program, but I just didn't see it at my first glance.

I also stopped at the booth for Video Text Interactive. The first time I went by, I spoke with the author's wife, Alice. She explained to me how the algebra program could be used right after the study of arithmetic was completed, and for homeschoolers, that can be as early as 5th or 6th grade. That kind of blew my mind, but then she went on to explain that they recommend a program for children that age which covers pre-algebra and algebra in 2 years. I don't remember all of the details of the plan, but I was very impressed. She also said that once your child completes their algebra program to take them to the local college and have them take the CLEP for college algebra! That completely blew me away! Maybe because my kids are so young, I never thought about doing that, but how awesome that their program is so thorough! Now, the cost of the program, if you buy the videos is quite high. They have a new option this year that allows you to use an online version of the program for $299 and it covers 2 students. That makes the program more competitive price wise, however, I think I would use it no matter how much it costs. Later, I spoke with her daughter and told her I talked to her mom about the program. She is not one I would think of as being very "mathy," and she said she was the gunea pig for the programs when she was in high school. She said that she was "homeschooled" in math when she got home from school! She did say that she would find errors in the way her teachers were presenting materials. It was a pretty awesome testimony, and she knew when we spoke that I wasn't going to be buying the program, we were chatting on a personal level, as I know her outside of the realm of homeschool conventions. I also picked up a cd copy of Tom Clark's presentation at the convention. He said that they teach the why behind the how in the first module of the algebra program. No matter what arithmetic program you use, he will re-teach the why's behind the how's.

Just my thoughts...hope it helps.

[KimS]

Not wanting to contradict Cindy but we have used Video text and Teaching Textbook and TT is by far the best. It explains EVERY problem so you can see where you messed up. The way he teaches just makes it so understandable.
With Video Text the answers were in the manual but there was no explanation of why/how you got that answer. So you were left either watching the whole thing again hoping you got it or just not knowing.
I remember sitting here watching my son's TT Algebra 2 and thinking wow all these years later I finally get Algebra. I NEVER understood it in high school.
Just my opinion and we have not used anything lower than Alg 2 with TT.