Understanding the Placement Chart?

[Hope]

Hi Ladies!

I have been looking over HOD with my DH after asking questions last week on the board. He is very impressed with the level of academics being required in the samples of work for the guides. He is definitely showing more interest in HOD then other curriculums from the past. He is very interested in Creation to Christ and the samples of work that I have found to show him.

My home school budget is already spent for this year. So I will be coming back with specific placement questions in the spring when I figure out where my children are at that point of time. I want to prepare them some this year though for a transition to HOD. So I have some specific questions about the placement chart as I try and understand it. I am also thinking of trying to start Drawn Into the Heart of Reading this school year.

I have been reading threads on placement at the top of this board, and they have helped. It looks like from one of the posts by my3sons that they should already be able to do the skills in each box on the placement chart for that guide before starting it. So the placement chart is showing what they need to be able to do in order to have success in that guide, rather then what they will learn in that guide. Did I understand that correctly?

This leads to my questions since some of the skills in HOD aren't taught in other programs and are skills I haven't done on my own.

For the skill area of reading:

~ For example, for the MTMM level it mentions that the student should be reading difficult chapter books independently. It also mentions that the student will have had formal literature study that includes various genres, literary terms, and higher level vocabulary and can think deeply and critically about what is read and is able to use DITHOR 6/7/8. This leads to my question. My oldest is in 6th grade this year and can read difficult chapter books independently easily. Other programs though have not led us at this point to literature study. So in the area of literature study, literary terms, and thinking deeply and critically about what is read the answer would be none at all. Unless oral narration or comprehension questions on literature would apply to the literature study requirements. RTR indicates exposure to literature study should have been accomplished. Does this put students coming into HOD into Creation to Christ, who haven't had literature study, in the area of reading regardless of reading level? Or, does some of the other skills gained in oral narration and comprehension questions apply to the placement chart in the area of reading? I do appreciate Carrie choosing to start literature study earlier then we have done. I wish my children had already started developing that skill. I am just wondering how it applies in placement. My children are advanced readers, but I see the placement chart as emphasizing thinking and literature study more then reading abilities. Am I understanding this skill level correctly?

For the skill area of writing:

~ I read Julie say that these skills in the box should already be done since they are in the previous guide. Coming from other backgrounds I am trying to discern which skills to emphasize in a given level, or if it is best to go all the way back where Carrie started building skills they haven't had in other programs or from me. For example, the RTR writing box states able to easily copy passages in cursive, can reproduce longer dictation passages, writes a paragraph with ease, can write an 8 - 12 sentence narration on own, ready to begin basic outlining. So using my 6th grader again as my example I would say yes to easily copying passages in Italic cursive, is working on longer dictation, can write a paragraph with moderate ease, writes narrations closer to one paragraph (or 5 sentences), and has already done some out lining in 5th. Since the goal of 8 - 12 sentences, that should be already accomplished, has not been accomplished would that mean Creation to Christ or since the rest of the skills are met does that mean doing RTR with one area of weakness? I want to be thinking about this between now and March and increasing some skills in their current curriculum to help if I can. So the more I understand the better off I think we will be in preparing for the transition.

For the skill area of grammar:

~ I guess it is the same question. Do I go with the program where ALL skills are met for that particular box? Or, do I take in account the boxes where some skills are met but some aren't due to different focuses and scope and sequence? We are Rod and Staff grammar users. My 6th grader is half way through book 5. For example, the box for grammar under Creation to Christ is below level but I haven't done 'beginning to proofread for mistakes in grammar or applying grammar to writing' that looks like is taught in Creation to Christ and expected to have been accomplished for the RTR placement. Book 5 though will be finished sometime this year and it looks like Carrie does book 6 over the course of Rev2Rev and MTMM. How does that placement work coming in?

I would love any insights into the placement chart that others may have. Has anyone come into HOD from other programs with students in the 5th - 7th grade range and found a good placement with the differences in scope and sequence? How did you apply the placement chart to your situation? Which parts of the chart did you emphasize? Did you go lower down where all parts are accomplished? Or, did you go more for grade level and a level where they have other skills from other places and let them grow into it some with different strengths coming in? How did your students do?

Thank you for your insights and help in understanding.

In Christ,

[StephanieU]

As for grammar and literature study, these parts can easily be adapted to where your child is at, as the level of DITHOR and Rod and Staff English is not tied directly to the rest of the guide. So, if you need to use a lower or higher level in those areas (and math), it isn't a huge issue.
But, reading ability and writing ability is important for the rest of the guide, as those skills are used in multiple subjects throughout the guide.
When I look at the placement chart, I first mark the guides that are age appropriate for my kids, focusing first on the ones that aren't in the extension range. That narrows it down to three columns. Then, I mark the boxes in those columns that my child fits into. If my child is beyond the skills in highest level, I just mark that level. If they are below the lowest level, then I will look at the two previous guides (where my child would be in the extension age range) and see if those are a better fit. Once I have all of the rows marks I look where I have the most boxes marked. I then look at the boxes in the guide that my child is not at. If it is literature, grammar, or math, I know I can modify the guide easily for those and "ignore" them for placement. If it is reading or writing, I look at what guide I would have to move down to for those skills to be met and consider if we can get caught up quickly in those areas. Although it is ideal to have met all of the skills on the placement chart for a guide before starting it, if it takes a month or two to be fully ready for the guide, that is normally okay. Most families go half speed for the first 1-2 units anyways (taking 2 weeks to do one unit) But, you want to be able to go full speed before too long and not having to modify the instructions in the guide by the end (except grammar and math).

Does that help some?

[MelInKansas]

I echo what Stephanie said regarding grammar and literature study. Those parts do not play as heavily into which guide you will choose, because they can be adapted to the child's level. It does impact the rest of the guide, but those two portions are somewhat separate from the skills used for the rest of the guide. So you could get any guide and then get whichever level of DITHOR and Rod and Staff grammar that your child needs and adapt that fairly easily. If you can start DITHOR this year that would actually help your transition as some of the skills there will help with other areas in the guide.

As to how to prepare them, I would see the narration skills and critical thinking skills as some that you will find in HOD and perhaps not in other programs you have used. Based on your description, of the written narrations being the one weak point, I would place the child where they fit based on skills and if there's just one area that lags behind the rest try to work hard on that area to catch up. My guess is if your child doesn't have some learning struggles that would make it more difficult, they can catch up within the year. Now it may also be difficult for you if you aren't familiar with those skills and how to build them. The HOD guides do a really good job of building it incrementally so the teacher and the student know what's expected. The introduction and appendices in the guide will help you, but there is a certain amount of understanding that's assumed if you are in a higher guide. Now if the skills are very behind, you may want to consider going back one guide from where they would otherwise place. If the challenge isn't enough you could add in extensions. But really one of the wonderful things about using HOD is having your child placed properly in a guide, where they can build on their skills and really soar. So using the placement chart, and then asking questions if you don't have an obvious fit from that, is the right thing to do (as you are already obviously doing).

When you get close to buying your curriculum for next year definitely take another look at the chart based on where your children are at then. Pray and consider, and trust the Lord to guide you.

[Hope]

Does that help some?

Yes, it does help. Thank you Stephanie. It gives me more of an idea of what to focus on regarding the placement chart.

As to how to prepare them, I would see the narration skills and critical thinking skills as some that you will find in HOD and perhaps not in other programs you have used. Based on your description, of the written narrations being the one weak point, I would place the child where they fit based on skills and if there's just one area that lags behind the rest try to work hard on that area to catch up. My guess is if your child doesn't have some learning struggles that would make it more difficult, they can catch up within the year. Now it may also be difficult for you if you aren't familiar with those skills and how to build them.

Thank you Melissa. This is helpful as well. From what I am seeing in the placement chart and samples of students work and samples of the teacher's guides it does look like Carrie does a really good job of building the skills of narration in ways that other curriculums we have used don't implement. We have been told to do 'oral narration' and 'some written narration' and as a result have dabbled in both. I would say though that it isn't a 'skill' that has been truly built within my children's educations. Copy work, dictation, IEW themed books (grades 6th - 8th), Rod and Staff English starting in 2nd grade is more of what we have done. So some of the skills Carrie has in the program they are quite strong in: copy work, dictation, out lining, composition in R&S, grammar in R&S, and IEW methods. The weakness would be the CM elements of narration that I am seeing deeply imbedded in HOD. Narration is something we have dabbled in, and even something our first and second grade program bases parts of itself on, but I have never honestly fully understood how to build it up to be an integral part of their language arts and history and science. I am not sure if that information helps in helping me. It is giving me much to think about. I see elements in HOD though that I would like in their educations that I am not getting elsewhere or giving myself.

They are bright kids though and may be able to fill in the gaps, if placed based on their reading and writing levels, as long as I am fully understanding how to help them do so. Am I getting this? I have read posts on other boards of people's struggles placing into HOD so I feel forewarned to take this slowly and carefully. I can see on here those who are placed correctly are really soaring, learning, growing, and gaining tremendous benefits from this program for their children. Benefits that are exactly the holes I am seeing in my own children's education. So I am willing to work through this process.

So looking at the placement chart again with different eyes. I can see where they would place now. So yes, this is helpful. I can also see what they would be learning this year, where they would place now, that would prepare them for a year from now.

Oh, I wish I had looked into HOD in July! The LORD though guides in His timing.

Thank you ladies for your help.

[MelInKansas]

Do you have more than one child you would be moving into HOD with? If so, you may be able to use help from a younger guide that a younger child is using in order to help your oldest grow in the skills. Again, the overviews of narration in the appendix of the guide are there to help guide you as to what it means to do a written or oral narration and what you should expect. It also helps (the appendix) with showing you which things you focus on first, then what skills to add on as you move through. So while it is not as easy as if you had started with HOD years ago, you will find what you need there as long as you refer back to it often. I even learned some new things about narration and what is expected as I looked at the appendix of my guide - for example I learned too late with my first that you are supposed to let the child's thoughts and words flow freely and not interrupt or add corrections until they are finished. This helps them continue their thoughts, gather and organize them, and get through it. I interrupted my oldest so much on her oral narrations because she'd remember something wrong or I would think she missed an important point and I would add it in. Whoops. Use those helps, they will make it go much more smoothly!

God does indeed guide, and it is good that you are trusting in that. He will help you as you seek to work through first of all where to place your children (as you already have read it is so critical), and then how to build skills they may be "behind" in for the guide.

I pray for blessing for you this year and as you prepare for HOD!

[Nealewill]

What I would also do before you do decide to order is to look at or print off the week at a glance for the level that you are considering. With the written narration you mentioned above, in CTC, kids do write a 5-8 sentence narration. In RtR, kids write an 8-12 sentence narration. As for saying they should be able to do them by the time you start the level, yes they should. But with my dd, in CTC, she was still sticking to between 5-8 sentences. Now that she is in RtR, she does write longer ones because it is required. Also - while you said your kids are advanced readers, I would also take into consideration reading volume. I am amazed at how much my dd is reading this year in RtR (and that she isn't even complaining about it!) If you start at a level that has a ton of reading and your kids aren't ready for that volume, that can be challenging too. So these are also things I would take into consideration. I think skills in the middle guides (CTC through MTMM) are somewhat similar in a lot of ways. The biggest difference is volume IMHO. The reading volume increases, the maturity content increases and the writing volume increases.

[Hope]

Thank you Melissa & Daneale,

I do have more then one child that would be moving to HOD. My 10 & 8 year olds (4th & 3rd) are fairly close in skills so I am thinking I might combine them. Right now Preparing looks like where they would place. So if they could increase in reading volume this year to CTC level they would be on track at least. I realize adjustments will be necessary to just getting used to HOD. If I started DITHOR it seems that would help as well. Are the narration tips in the DITHOR appendix by any chance? My 6th grader would be able to read any volume level in the CTC to MTMM range. So it seems written narrations will be the biggest increase needed if placed on grade level next year with Rev2Rev. The rest of the writing is through the RTR level currently. The work load over all looks like it will take an adjustment in the area of writing since Carrie integrates it across subjects. This gives me a good idea. Your insight into volume helped a lot. My fourth child isn't at the LHTH level yet, so that will be later.

I think I am starting to understand. Our other curriculum encourages written narration, but never gave any guidance for it beyond 2nd grade. So that part of their education has been minimal. It seems like that is the area we could start working on the most. As well as the DITHOR.

I really like what I am seeing in the guides of gradual skill building. It would help so much. Especially as they are aging. I feel like we are starting to stagnant in growth just at the time that they really need to be increasing it.

Thank you!

[MelInKansas]

Preparing is where Written Narrations are introduced and that guide has a gradual increase in what's required of the child to do the written narration. That is where the teacher guidance is so helpful IMO. No, I don't think DITHOR has narration tips in it anywhere. If you have a local homeschool association maybe someone else has one of the HOD guides that you could read the appendix in. But if you end up doing Preparing next year you'd have the best introduction to written narration and could use it with both of your kids. You could add extensions for your older one if you felt that was helpful (more reading and I think there might be writing assignments too, and more in-depth learning on the topics). But it sounds like maybe Preparing is where they would place NOW (for written narration) and so by next year they might be higher. I hope you figure out some way to help them grow in some of the skills they need to move into a guide that fits better in other ways. And if your kids are pretty close in skills and age and amount they can read/write are the only differences than combining might be a really good idea.

[Hope]

Thank you Melissa!

I am considering Preparing for this year for my two middles. It seems like it would be really helpful in stepping this direction. The samples show a lot of help in written narrations that I would like to have.

Thank you for your help. All of you on this board are so helpful!

Blessings,