Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

This is where new posts begin. All questions or discussions about any of Heart of Dakota's curriculums start here. If you wish to share a one-time post about your family's experience with our curriculum, you may post under the specific curriculum title (found beneath this "Main Board" heading).
Post Reply
Nealewill
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

Post by Nealewill » Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:16 am

So, my son will start Preparing next year. His spelling is horrible! My questions is, how have you handed written narrations if your kids have very poor spelling? Should I worry about? My son will do whatever. He isn't picky and he won't complain. To be honest, I don't think he really cares one way or another :-) I have thought about writing his written narrations down and having him copy them. And I have though about writing down tough words or words I know he will miss and he can use the list as a guide to help with spelling. The challenge for him is that he will most like miss easier words too. I am okay if everything isn't spelled correctly. He reads A LOT now and his spelling is getting somewhat better. Part of me thinks let it go and don't worry too much. My oldest had somewhat of the same problem for a different reason and she spells much better now. I just let her's go, wrote down the tough words and after a while there weren't nearly so many mistakes :-) But my son's spelling is worse than hers was. For my son now, he does all of his writing in the DITHOR book with minimal help. I do spell things as he asks. I also spell stuff when he asked for help in the R&S book if he had to write a sentence on his own. With Bigger, we chose to do copy work when a choice was given for copywork or independent writing during the history notebooking pages. For science experiments, he usually wrote it himself and just would ask when he needed help with spelling. And with the dictionary entries it was hit or miss as to whether or not help copied something or came up with it alone.

I know there is a bit more independent writing in Preparing. He will be writing more in science (questions and then the experiment). He will have the written narrations. He will have the sentences from the dictionary entries. DITHOR won't increase per se because he is continuing on with his book but it will have some independent writing.

So, if you had a child who struggled, how did you handle it as the writing increased? My hope is that because of the dictation and his increase in reading, spelling will just naturally increase and get better. We are just at the point right before that actually happens :-)
Daneale

DD 13 WG
DS 12 R2R
DD 10 R2R

Enjoyed DITHOR, Little Hearts, Beyond, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, R2R, RevtoRev, MtMM

OHMom
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:00 am

Re: Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

Post by OHMom » Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:51 am

I've had a couple of kids with bad spelling over the years. My guy that's in Preparing right now is one of them. When he is doing his written narrations, I do write a lot of the words that I think he will have trouble with on our marker board. I've found that it makes him braver to use those bigger words that were new to him if he can copy them. We also always correct all the spelling before it goes into his notebook. Sometimes I sit down with him and go through it word by word to correct. Sometimes I use small post-it notes and write the correct spelling on them so that he can correct it in his own handwriting. I'm pretty strick that anything that goes into the notebook has to be spelled correctly and written neatly. We don't always make it, but I tell the kids that if it's worth while to keep then it should be worth while to make sure it's correct.

When my older kids were younger, we had a spelling notebook, where I wrote words that they seemed to use frequently in their writing but seemed to misspell often. Then, they could look it up themselves. I remember words like "because", "sometimes", and "beautiful" making it into those notebooks. At that time, I had lots of younger children, toddlers and babies and wasn't always available to help with spelling.

HTH,
Janet
Janet
Mom to 8
Current students:
ds (18) US HIstory II
ds (16) World HIstory
ds (14) MTMM
ds (12) Resurrection to Ref.
dd (10) Preparing

MelInKansas
Posts: 1700
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

Post by MelInKansas » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:28 pm

I think the narration tips and guidelines in the back of the manual can be your guide here. I didn't even realize that it was okay to leave misspellings. I think you have to prioritize the aspects of the written narration in order to make it a more positive experience. You say he "doesn't care" so would he be upset by lots of correction being made to his narration, or would it frustrate him to draw it out in that way? If not, then I guess you can go through and correct it. If so, that's when you have to weigh what is more important, him doing his best and not having to agonize over it, or proper spelling of all words. So I started off being really strict in the spelling and punctuation and then backed off as I read through the expectations and realized that it's not expected that they can spell everything correctly, it's a work in progress.

Proper spelling and punctuation is important to emphasize, I guess I'm just saying it is not the primary purpose of the written narration. The primary purpose is their ability to remember, assimilate, and summarize the information.
Melissa
"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
His mercies never come to an end"

DD12 - Rev to Rev + DITHOR 6/7/8
DD10 - CTC + DITHOR 2/3
DD7 - Bigger + ERs
DS5 - LHFHG
DD2 - ABC123
2 babies in heaven

annaz
Posts: 833
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:47 pm

Re: Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

Post by annaz » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:03 pm

This will probably not be a popular answer, but here it goes anyway.

First you said he doesn't really care. Then you mentioned that you're okay if everything isn't spelled correctly either. So I see two issues here. One that it doesn't seem to be too important and he can read into that. Two he should care. If anything is worth doing, it's worth doing well. And then it's worth trying and working on it, even if he can't do it well. Either way, it's no reason to let it go. He's still very young.

Second, he's not going to naturally get it if he hasn't already. Some kids are natural spellers, but reading books doesn't make a kid spell well anymore than watching a chef makes a good cook.

So I would definitely help him. But I would also definitely give him some remedial spelling. A program perhaps? Not all spelling ways work for everyone. I think basic spelling knowledge should be taught before writing. But that's my personal opinion. That's not to say that they can't write if they can't spell. But isn't spelling and grammar the structure on which writing is built?

I just think life is a struggle in itself and at this age it's still worth working at to get him up to par. Otherwise I think it sends kids the wrong message.


If it were me I'd try a spelling program that you think would fit him. Sequential Spelling, All About Spelling? There are oodles out there.
Married 1994
One DD 6/2000
One DH :)
One cat
One dog
Three horses :shock:

LovingJesus
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:29 am

Re: Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

Post by LovingJesus » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:42 pm

annaz wrote:This will probably not be a popular answer, but here it goes anyway.

First you said he doesn't really care. Then you mentioned that you're okay if everything isn't spelled correctly either. So I see two issues here. One that it doesn't seem to be too important and he can read into that. Two he should care. If anything is worth doing, it's worth doing well. And then it's worth trying and working on it, even if he can't do it well. Either way, it's no reason to let it go. He's still very young.

Second, he's not going to naturally get it if he hasn't already. Some kids are natural spellers, but reading books doesn't make a kid spell well anymore than watching a chef makes a good cook.

So I would definitely help him. But I would also definitely give him some remedial spelling. A program perhaps? Not all spelling ways work for everyone. I think basic spelling knowledge should be taught before writing. But that's my personal opinion. That's not to say that they can't write if they can't spell. But isn't spelling and grammar the structure on which writing is built?

I just think life is a struggle in itself and at this age it's still worth working at to get him up to par. Otherwise I think it sends kids the wrong message.


If it were me I'd try a spelling program that you think would fit him. Sequential Spelling, All About Spelling? There are oodles out there.
I think annaz is giving you some good advice here.

Prior to 5th grade, when my ds11 couldn't spell as well, I wasn't using HOD yet. My focus during 2nd, 3rd, and 4th for writing was copy work, dictation, oral narration, and when he would do a written narration he would dictate it to me and then copy it. Perhaps the having him dictate the written narrations to you and then copy them for now is the best plan. Until the spelling starts to come together I think writing is limited. I also think practicing wrong spelling can ingrain that incorrect spelling in some children's heads and should be avoided. I think it is important to correct the spelling mistakes to help them learn how to spell.

I think learning to write is a process. It takes a lot of copy work and dictation and studying of spelling before many kids are truly ready to put words into sentences. Some children will naturally write very young, but many need to go through the process of learning how to do it.

Blessings,

P.S. Daniele, I don't want to re-surface this thread. In case you ever read it again though I wanted to say I am truly sorry for misunderstanding you. You clearly care, in this thread, very much about your son.
Last edited by LovingJesus on Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:12 pm, edited 12 times in total.

MelInKansas
Posts: 1700
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

Post by MelInKansas » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:19 pm

I don't think she is saying she will not be teaching her son spelling or emphasizing with him that he needs to practice good spelling. I think correcting it is important also, and I also think she is working to address his poor spelling. I think she is asking how much should she be emphasizing spelling in written narrations. The guidelines say that you should correct spelling, grammar, and punctuation but that is several steps down the line. I think Carrie is saying with this that, yes, you correct the spelling, but before you correct the spelling you look at the grasp of the material and how well composed the narration is. I do understand that it is best for children to always see/write the correct spelling as much as possible to get that ingrained in their head. But you can't control a child's free writing, or if the instructions say to let them write down the sentences and then go back over it with them (as the narrations tend to go towards in Preparing) then should she just let him write it his own way, or should she always be on hand to help him spell correctly?

So, again, I don't think anyone is saying she shouldn't work with him on spelling and she shouldn't find a program that helps him improve his spelling. When you are doing spelling work the emphasis there is on correct spelling, so that is always key. For written narration you can end up totally ignoring the purpose of the assignment if you focus too much on spelling. I know I was guilty of that with my oldest and it caused problems with her not wanting to do any assignment like that. So I understand the meaning of the question and how too much focus on writing everything perfectly the first time can cause frustration and derail the assignment.
Melissa
"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
His mercies never come to an end"

DD12 - Rev to Rev + DITHOR 6/7/8
DD10 - CTC + DITHOR 2/3
DD7 - Bigger + ERs
DS5 - LHFHG
DD2 - ABC123
2 babies in heaven

Nealewill
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

Post by Nealewill » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:58 pm

Annaz,

I do thank you for your reply but I think you may have misunderstood my question. I wasn't seeking spelling advice. I was seeking advice on how to help a child who struggled with spelling when they come to an age where they begin to write creatively. And I haven't given up on spelling on any way. I am completing dictation with him. Further more, I actually have tried a few things - AAS being one of them - and dictation has turned out to be his absolute best fit. And not that I need to explain myself to anyone about WHY my son is such a poor speller but it is because he has auditory processing disorder. He didn't learn how to talk until he was 4. He was in and out of therapy for 3 full years learning how to annunciate sounds, understand language, and he had to go to occupational therapy. Plus he has been in and out of therapy with a psychologist due to him being a high sensory child - he had a hard time processing the fact that he can literally feel his emotions on his skin (for example, he used to scream because he would say bugs were crawling on him, that was him "feeling" anxiety). He was VERY delayed in many areas because he could not process the world around him like normal children do. With all of the challenges he has had so far, I am shocked at how far he has come. To be honestly, him not succeeding in life was not option for me! God gave me this beautiful little boy and I have made it my personal mission to see that I develop him in the best Godly man I can.

As LovingJesus stated, things started coming together for her son in 5th grade. That is kind of right where I am right now. I have a feeling it will all becoming together for him around age 10 or 11. Because we did AAS for a few years, I feel like it actually set us back on common words and hindered his spelling. I couldn't start it when he was in 2nd grade because he couldn't read until last year. Now, he reads VERY well for his age and practically reads anything before him. I know he is just on the cusp of beginning to spell well. But I think we will have a year or so where his spelling just won't be up to speed.

I guess I am feeling a little bit judge here (not that it will change my approach on how I proceed to teach him spelling) because I feel like both you and LovingJesus seem to think I don't care. I actually do care.....deeply. I just don't care about making everything perfect. But I do actually still care about spelling. If I didn't, then I would just do nothing - I wouldn't even do dictation.

MelinKansas - thanks for your advice. I think our girls are very similar. My oldest struggled much like yours. Me nitpicking at her all the time over spelling words correctly or punctuation really shut her down. I am glad I let that it go because she is developing into a fantastic writer. And her spelling gets better every year. I anticipate the same for son.

OHMom - I love the idea about creating the word book. I think we will start this next year. I probably won't correct everything he writes. But I will have him fix the words he should know how to spell or anything he copies down wrong. Other than that, I am not going to stress him out.
Daneale

DD 13 WG
DS 12 R2R
DD 10 R2R

Enjoyed DITHOR, Little Hearts, Beyond, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, R2R, RevtoRev, MtMM

countrymom
Posts: 770
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:16 pm

Re: Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

Post by countrymom » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:49 am

I am late to this post and haven't read the other replies, but just wanted to share my experience. My son's spelling was so bad when we first started Preparing that I chose the option to have him dictate his written narration to me and I typed as he dictated. Then he copied it. I am pretty sure that is one of the choices listed in the guide, although not the first choice for sure. I am not remembering how long I did it, I may have done that all through preparing. I just didn't want him to be continuously misspelling words, as I don't feel that helps a struggling speller, but on the other hand, I wanted him to be able to focus on the new skill, writing narration instead of orally saying it. When we went to him writing it, I would look at his narration and circle the misspelled words. Then I helped him rewrite the word in the margin. I did not have him write the written narrations in the box of the notebooking pages for CTC for this reason, plus he couldn't fit it in anyway. After a year of that, we have just started R2R and he is writing his narrations in the box. I still check for spelling, but it has definitely improved. I have done dictation with him everyday instead of just the days listed in the guide to strengthen his spelling. Hang in there, it can be slow, but it will come. The path I took with my bad speller seems to have worked for us, so just wanted to share what we did.
Countrymom
Wife to J
Big J - LHFHG, Beyond, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, R2R, Rev to Rev, Modern Missions, beginning parts of World Geography
Little J - LHTH, LHFHG, Beyond, Bigger, Preparing, working in CTC

Mumkins
Posts: 792
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:45 pm
Location: Ontario
Contact:

Re: Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

Post by Mumkins » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:55 am

You know my DD has APD too. She's really coming along. I'm so proud of her. I'd say she's just about caught up in reading and is maybe a year or two behind in spelling. I intend to make written narrations about written narrations. At first anyway. If I correct the entire thing, it'll become something she dreads. I see her spelling coming along. I know she'll get there. Something I remember from her being in school is she started writting check marks all around her name. Her grade 2 teacher write huge red X's for every error , which were frequent, and didn't even give check marks for correct work. It was hard for her to put so much effort in, only to have her mistakes thrown back at her when she's trying so hard. I don't want discourage her by picking apart her work and showing her every single mistake she made. We do spelling, we do dictation, those I correct. At first, I intend to just pick 2-3 words to correct. She needs to build confidence in her written narration skills. It's such a huge part of HOD. After she's got the down, then we can move on to worrying about spelling. But I suspect her spelling will have greatly improved by then and it won't be a big deal.

I also wanted to encourage you that him reading will have a HUGE effect on his spelling. My oldest, not diagnosed, but likely APD as well, was not a good speller at first, but now she's amazing. She was a delayed reader as well. I asked her what helped her becomea good speller. She said it was reading. Constantly seeing words spelled correctly helped her rememember them. I'm sure now that your son is reading, his spelling will really improve.
7 awesome kids!

2 graduated
2 at highschool
3 coming home to homeschool in the fall💕
DD5 LHFHG
DS9 Preparing
DS12 RTR

We’ve enjoyed LHTH, LHFHG, Beyond, Preparing, CTC, WG

Nealewill
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

Post by Nealewill » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:27 pm

Mumkins - that is everything I have experienced so far as well. Sam is very probably a year or two delayed in spelling. Thanks for your thoughts on copying the narration vs letting him have a go at it. I am not sure what I am going to do yet. But I have definitely seen that because he does read more, he is able to spell more because he is seeing the words more often. Thanks again. The encouragement about your daughter is very helpful. I used to have times that I felt very discouraged but I don't feel so bad now. I feel better every day :-) But your encouragement definitely helps to keep me up on that high :-)
Daneale

DD 13 WG
DS 12 R2R
DD 10 R2R

Enjoyed DITHOR, Little Hearts, Beyond, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, R2R, RevtoRev, MtMM

Nealewill
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

Post by Nealewill » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:27 pm

Mumkins - that is everything I have experienced so far as well. Sam is very probably a year or two delayed in spelling. Thanks for your thoughts on copying the narration vs letting him have a go at it. I am not sure what I am going to do yet. But I have definitely seen that because he does read more, he is able to spell more because he is seeing the words more often. Thanks again. The encouragement about your daughter is very helpful. I used to have times that I felt very discouraged but I don't feel so bad now. I feel better every day :-) But your encouragement definitely helps to keep me up on that high :-)
Daneale

DD 13 WG
DS 12 R2R
DD 10 R2R

Enjoyed DITHOR, Little Hearts, Beyond, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, R2R, RevtoRev, MtMM

my3sons
Posts: 10702
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:08 pm
Location: South Dakota

Re: Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

Post by my3sons » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:52 pm

I am in the Chicago airport as our flight has been delayed again (we already stayed overnight here because the previous one was delayed :shock: ), so I was trying to catch up on the HOD board. :) I can feel your concern about your ds's spelling. I felt that way about my oldest son's spelling as well. As you know, he was born very prematurely and struggled with speech delays. Spelling was not a natural skill for him. We began doing dictation every day, and that seemed to help him slowly and steadily improve. As far as correcting editing in written narrations, PHFHG does have excellent tips in the Appendix that I did follow. I don't have access to them right now, but as I utilized the suggestions, I remember weighing in my mind the point of frustration for Wyatt when editing, and being mindful of the balance of not pushing too much yet having high enough expectations. That balance is hard to maintain, and I see the thoughts and insights that often accompany the attempt to maintain that balance in the responses in this thread.

Dc begin with 1-3 sentences assigned for written narrations at the start of PHFHG. I often underlined the words Wyatt misspelled, as 1-3 sentences didn't include an overwhelming amount of corrections. If the word was an event or a person's name from history, I would have him open his history book he just read from and find it in there to copy. This immediately cut down on spelling errors, as he began to reference the history book if needed for spelling help while writing his written narration. I didn't mind him copying single words such as names or events, as it is not plagerism, and it was no different than me writing it for him to copy on a markerboard. :D Next, I'd have him look at the word and try jotting on markerboard or scratch paper to see if he could come up with 'what looked right.' Again, I watched for frustration and tried to maintain that balance of accountability and frustration. :wink: After about less than a minute of trying to spell it right on his own, I wrote it for him correctly spelled on the markerboard, and we moved on to another subject. As he has gotten older, I see him starting with using his history/science/etc. texts to help him spell words such as new vocabulary terms, people's names, events, etc., moving to jotting it in his HOD Student Notebook in pencil, reading it out loud and trying to fix it as he reads according to what he thinks 'looks right,' and/or putting it in his IPod webster dictionary to see if it's spelled right. Finally, as he reads it aloud to me, he reads it with pencil in hand and often fixes any few errors he still may have on his own as he reads it to me, and finally if there are any errors left, I jot them on a sticky note or a markerboard for him to fix as he's reading (if he didn't fix it already on his own).

WHEW! I managed to make this sound long and drawn out and complicated, when in all actuality this entire process happens pretty quickly! :D We have a team approach to editing, and by the end a well-edited, pretty well-written 1-3 sentences in PHFHG are the result. 8) I just thought I'd share the progress I've seen through the years, and encourage you Nealewill that your little one will make progress too. Slow and steady, quality over quantity, teamwork over you're in this alone, and consistent patient correction win this race. :D

In Christ,
Julie
Enjoyed LHTH to USII
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie

Nealewill
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: Kids with bad spelling starting written narrations

Post by Nealewill » Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:46 pm

Thank you Julie! I actually was searching for prior threads where you had commented about your oldest. We did make the switch to the word lists in the back of the Bigger manual and his spelling is already improving. I do a bit more review than recommended. So we do the words for 3 days like the manual lists and then I just a have a review day on the 4th day. We aren't really doing school right now. So I am just going to move forward with the spelling, some math review, reading daily and some language review. Other than that - it is a LIGHT schedule. I also do plan to do spelling 4 days instead of 3 next year. I know he will get better. It is just taking him longer than his siblings. He has really impressed me with his spelling toward the end of the year so far :-) There were words from the list that he would remember when he was doing his dictionary entries and his science experiment write-ups. I think I will absolutely have him reference his history text for names and events. I remember you gave that advice for me with Allie and that worked out very well. I think I will also help him go through and correct as much as we can before he gets frustrated. I don't think he will need help with EVERY word but there will be a lot. Usually he just sits next to me and will ask me if something looks right or how to spell something. Usually, I am the human dictionary - which is scary since I am not a great speller myself LOL. The Webster app for iPhones became my BFF this year LOL. But I do like the thought of pushing him but not to the point of frustration. I think that is a realistic goal. He has always had a great attitude for anything given to him - even if he didn't want to do it - he did and did his best. I know next year is going to be a challenge. But I am looking forward to it. And I think Sam will be very proud of himself once next he starts and he sees how much he improves. It should be a great year.

Thanks again.

And prayers you make it home soon! I can't even imagine being stuck overnight. Plus - with summer, it is nice to be home and enjoy each and every day.
Daneale

DD 13 WG
DS 12 R2R
DD 10 R2R

Enjoyed DITHOR, Little Hearts, Beyond, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, R2R, RevtoRev, MtMM

Post Reply