If not R&S

[PoppyD]

Hi ladies,
I'm starting CTC in July with my 5th grader. We have been using R&S for grammar for years now with a small break using CLE. I have to say, R&S isn's our favorite. I know it's very thorough and good but does anyone NOT use it? I am considering Jr. Analytical Grammar and IEW Fix It Grammr.
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Poppy

[Nealewill]

I had tried R&S prior to coming to HOD and we had some trouble. Needless to say, I was initially not excited that HOD used it. I have researched both of those programs you mentioned thoroughly. I ended up deciding to stick with R&S (using it the way HOD recommends - 2/3 orally and 1/3 orally) for a few reasons.

1. R&S is much more than a grammar program. It includes a lot of writing activities as well in addition to the grammar. And I do feel like the writing programs with HOD scheduled the way they are schedule because of the writing activities in R&S. If I were to not use R&S for grammar, I would still have to schedule them with the writing.
2. I like how fast R&S is to complete. The other programs would drain more time in my day. I like how R&S can be completed 2/3 orally where the other programs do a lot more writing and take lot more time.
3. I like the cost of R&S. To be quite honest, I usually never base my decision on whether or not to use a program because of the cost. My husband and I are very blessed and while we don't have tons of money necessarily, we have always been able to buy what we want to use for school. I did actually order in Analytical Grammar last year with the intentions of using it instead of R&S. After I got it though, I ended up sending it back. I personally felt like R&S was more interesting, covered more information, was more balanced for our day and was cheaper (my husband almost died when I said I just couldn't justify the extra expense per kid LOL). For me, I felt like it was lot of money for what it was. That is me personally and I am sure others don't agree.

Next year in CTC, you will only be doing 1/2 the book. If you use another program, the you will be move to doing grammar every day. I prayed about it and decided R&S was the way to go. The 4th book is structured much more differently than book 2 and 3. Have you looked that the table of contents? My oldest hates diagraming. But this year, there has been a lot less of it. She has liked that! It is definitely hard sometimes to pick and choose because there really are a lot of great programs out there. For me, using the LA box as written with HOD has been a blessing for both growth and for balance. And that is my ultimate goal - growth with balance. It is actually one of the main things that has kept me with HOD as well. You definitely need to do what you need to do but hopefully my thoughts brought some perspective to help you with your decision.

[kidsforHim]

Just bumping... any responses to this? We are kind of in the same boat... but a little different situation in that my boys will be '9th' and 10'th grade next school year and really just got an understanding of grammar just this year. So... would level 4 be too low to start them? or should we chose 5. Otherwise I do not know what grammar curriculum to use. I don't like R & S but then we did it several years ago and not with HOD.

[Nealewill]

Kids for Him,

If you were planning to use R&S, I think you would start at level 5. There is review at the beginning of each book and that would help. The one thing I don't know of is if you would want to try and finish one book each year. This would put you closer finishing book 8 by the end. I have seen mixed reviews on speed of completing. If you want your child to finish level 8 by the time they finish HOD, then I would have them do 1 lesson per day. But if you are fine with them finishing through level 6 by the end, you could do 2 lessons per week.

[Mumkins]

I have a love/hate relationship with R&S. I don't really like it, but, I can't find anything else I like better. Not using it means they'd miss a lot if skills Carrie covers within it, aside from just grammar. It's through, it's quick. And, once we finish book 4 next year, my youngest daughter will be on grammar only twice a week til she graduates, so, we'll just stick with it. My oldest is coming home for highschool. I'm starting in book 6. My daughter does have a fairly good grasp on grammar. Briefly quizzing her on topics from the table of contents of book 6, she knows a lot of it. I plan on having her do the chapter review of each chapter, then, we'll go back and address anything she didn't fully understand. We're going to add grammar on day 5 as well, and hope to get through all 3 by the end of 12th.

[kidsforHim]

So if we do just through 6 by the end of high school that will give them enough grammar?
I really don't want to even try going any further. It's the amount of instruction. My oldest, soon to be 10th grader, has a hard time with *wordy* instruction. I even tried 6 with DS, soon to be 9th gr., at the beginning of this year and it was too much. I would LOVE to do 2 days a week for grammar. I think if we'd try to get a book done in a year the short lesson idea wouldn't work here. I'm not real sure even with 2 days a week that the lessons would be *short*, it just wouldn't be everyday, which would be nice! My boys have struggled in grammar AND writing and will really take f..o..r..e...v...e....r.... getiing it done.
(BTW- they have had very little writing instruction out side of letters, envelopes, paragraph)
Thanks for the replies!

[Jennymommy]

Remember that the grammar is meant to be done mostly orally, with some written assignments. We do quite a bit with the white board as well.

[kidsforHim]

True.... was hoping they could do it without so much of that. It isn't a setup that will work here. They've also been totally independent of me for years (unless the are stumped or something, I'm available for help)

[Jennymommy]

I see it as my responsibility to send my young men into the world as fully prepared to do the task God asks of them as possible . Therefore they are held to a high standard in my home to do good work and challenge themselves. This looks different for each boy as they have different strengths, but they must work to their potential without complaint because they serve a great God who does not accept excuses. I would encourage you to be amazed as what your young men can accomplish as well

[kidsforHim]

Jennymommy - so are you saying let them do the lessons on their own? and not worry about doing it orally with them?
For reasons that I do not want to get into here, my husband will not want me to be working with the boys to that extent, doing lessons orally. He knows to well what will happen. I have 4 DC and the 3 older ones are working very well, independent of me in all subjects.

[Jennymommy]

Have you looked into the workbooks that Rod and Staff sells? This may be an option...I used then for a year when I was unable to focus on all the tasks set before me. Along with the teacher's manual, they were a real help.

[Motherjoy]

My oldest has used R&S all the way through, though at times I was unable to do the work orally with him, and simply handed him the book and told him to get it done. I'm on the fence about it. It is much more than grammar. It includes a lot of writing and stylistic advice, and much more. In the grammar arena, I'm leaning towards Analytical Grammar, used for 10 intense weeks in grade 6, 7, and 8, with reinforcement exercises every other week after that. For me, that seems like enough grammar. Lol.

[Nealewill]

True.... was hoping they could do it without so much of that. It isn't a setup that will work here. They've also been totally independent of me for years (unless the are stumped or something, I'm available for help)

I would just go through their book and circle the problems you want them to do then. You mentioned only doing it twice a week. I think that would be fine. If it were me, I would have them read the instructions, then pick maybe 5 or 6 problems from 2 sets for them to do on paper. You can check those. If they do those correctly, then no problem and you know they udnerstand. If they don't, then the next day you can go over what they missed and assign a few more problems from the same set for them to complete. Also - if you are worried about the amount of writing, you could just have them write in the actual text book if that will help cut down on the time. A big reason for my love of R&S is the efficiency and quickness of using their program. Take that away and I may not stay with R&S.

If you do find that R&S just takes way to long, you could look at Analytical Grammar. I do like R&S more only because of diversity but AG has videos the kids could watch. You could use their two or three year scheduled to spread it out but a lot of the stuff that is taught toward the end of the schedule is how to apply grammar. By now, in high school, you probably will want to have the kids applying it for a few years before you send them off to college. You could do 1 year of AG fairly intense to get it over with and then do their review products for 2 years after that. That would give them the grammar instruction that they need. But then you would still miss out on extra writing activities that R&S provides. It is a tough choice but I would consider which one you would do best with.

[Nealewill]

BTW - I think R&S 6 is plenty to finish through high school. R&S is still my first pick because I do think it is beautiful program and does a great job. But I really like how it works when you do some of it orally. That helps in cutting down the student time drastically!

[my3sons]

Grammar is not an 'inspirational subject,' but rather a 'disciplinary subject,' and as such it's not intended to be flashy. It's not that you couldn't use another grammar, it's just you'd have to probably use another grammar AND another English program that covers all of the REST of what is covered so well in R & S English. I have not found one program that covers all of the bases it needs to for English like R & S English does. Take a look at the 'oral communication,' 'types of writing,' and 'using helps' columns in the overall scope and sequence of R & S English...



We are standardized testing now, and R & S English thoroughly prepares our dc for their tests. A study guide book for prepping to take the Iowa Basic Skills Test (which we have never used, but which I just looked up online) has this to say to help dc prepare for this part of the test...
...A comprehensive Spelling, Capitalization, Usage & Expression review including: Simplicity is Bliss, Recognizing Parallelism, Understanding Grammar Type, Keys to Using Punctuation, Beware of Added Phrases, Clearing Up Word Confusion, Comparative Methods, Nonessential Sections, Maintaining the Flow, Serial Mistakes; A comprehensive Vocabulary review including: Eliminating Similarities, Mastering the Positive, Reading Between the Lines, Using Type and Topic, Leveraging Your Resources, Understanding Word Strength, Avoiding Familiarity Traps, Determining Relationships, Forming Sentences, Using Replacements;...

Using R & S English in the method HOD recommends, which is doing a lot of it orally/on marker board, and reserving 1 section to write, and following the pacing HOD recommends, which alternates half-speed with full-speed alongside other writing curriculum requirements within HOD guides - works to make it as stream-lined as possible. Doing 2 programs would take longer. I have been very impressed with the results of R & S English within our own kiddos. They know it well, and it carries over to many facets of their writing cross-curricular (i.e. taking notes for talking point narrations in WH, writing outlines for research, choosing a good structure for paragraphs, proofreading written narrations/essays, etc.). Every subject cannot be inspirational, and I have actually come to be glad about this. We cannot live in an inspired state all of the time! Some subjects just must be done, and the more efficiently the better. HOD inspires in history, in Bible, in science, in storytime, in DITHOR, in poetry, in music, etc. - but not in grammar, and that's ok by me. We clip along with grammar, and we reap the benefits. Finishing R & S 8 in high school is the best, finishing R & S 7 in high school is the next best, and finishing R & S 6 is a minimum. I'd shoot for completing at least 7 unless I had a student that really had a difficult time in LA in school. However, you will know what you are comfortable with - HTH as you ponder what you want to do!

In Christ,
Julie