Needing input on Writing & Lit for a 16 year old

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momxnine
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:22 pm

Needing input on Writing & Lit for a 16 year old

Post by momxnine » Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:59 pm

I'm not really sure what to do here, so I thought I'd see if anyone here has any wise advice. My 16 year old son has been using ACE Paces for the last two years. He started his 9 gr. year with MFW Ancient History & Lit, but for various reasons, we stopped & went to the paces. Now he's just wanting to be done, but still has a few credits left that he needs, a couple of which are in Grammar and Literature. He has the paces to do, but honestly, they look really boring and he's bored. :( His writing is not very good since ACE doesn't seem to have much in the way of writing. I was reading an essay that he wrote while doing MFW and it was SO much better than something he just wrote a week ago with the paces. :( He needs more writing. He's really good at the grammar, but also hasn't done much with Lit. ACE tends to do a lot of good books, but none are really classics, just good books.

So this is what I'm thinking and wondering about... I'm thinking of buying the World Geo. guide (my youngest son will need it in a couple of years anyway) and putting the 16 year old through the BJU Fundamentals book this spring and also the Essentials in Writing Grade 10. Then when he's done with those, maybe go to the grade 11 EIW, maybe not, but then just have him read some various classic books and do the annotating and evaluating like the World Geo. guide has the students do.

Would that work? Any other ideas or thoughts? I was going to call Carrie & chat with her, but they're out of town all week and I really need to figure out what I'm doing. :)

Thanks for any suggestions! :)
Vicki in SW. MO.
Mom of 9 (ages 14 - 35) and Grammy to 7
14 ds - Finished CTC, RTR and Rev To Rev; MTMM - Fall of 2016

Jennymommy
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Re: Needing input on Writing & Lit for a 16 year old

Post by Jennymommy » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:59 pm

Hey Vicki, I know Carrie and Julie will have great advice for you :D I bet they will want to know what other subjects and electives he had finished, however, I wanted to encourage you now. My son has improved dramatically in the writing and grammar department since we went back and purchased the WG literature and writing components . I had started this year with another literature program :? I am just so impressed with the unity and integrity of Carrie's selections and instructions, and my son is really blossoming in his ability to use the guide independently along with his growing communication skills. I hope you will find just the right fit for your family.

kidsforHim
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Re: Needing input on Writing & Lit for a 16 year old

Post by kidsforHim » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:57 am

May I jump in and ask a question too? Does the WG literature and writing require parent time or can it mostly be done by the student independently? if parent time required, how much?
Thanks!
Becly

LynnH
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Re: Needing input on Writing & Lit for a 16 year old

Post by LynnH » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:32 pm

I think the writing is scheduled as an I box so it can be done independently. I like to watch the short video with my ds so I know what is expected of him and then I clarify things and off he goes on his own. I then grade it when he is done. It takes about 10-15 minutes of my time this way. Writing has been a struggle for him at times so that is why I do it this way, but if you have a strong writer or someone who is good at independent work then you would just have to grade their work and spend some time giving any input to the finished assignments that you felt was necessary to give.

Just realized you also asked about the literature also,that does require time on days when BJU lit is scheduled as a discussion with the parent, which is about every other day. When they are reading the novels there are times of oral narration that require the parent. Most of it is done by the student alone though.
Mom to:
dd 22 college graduate and employed as an Intervention Specialist
ds 18 US2, Loved Preparing, CTC , RTR , Rev to Rev, MTMM ,WG, WH and US1
http://www.graceandfur.blogspot.com/

my3sons
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Re: Needing input on Writing & Lit for a 16 year old

Post by my3sons » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:24 pm

Hi Vicki! :D Thank your for describing your ds so well in your post - that helps so much! :) Carrie and I talked through your post, and we both agree that it would a good idea to use WG for your ds's LA. As he has not done much in the way of writing and reading classic literature, it will be important to do each part of the LA in the WG guide, including the BJU plans, the Boy Set of classic literature, R & S English 7 (which also includes writing assignments), and EIW Gr. 10, as well as all of the scheduled follow-up skills/discussions/etc. planned in the LA box of the WG guide. The following year, it will be equally important to do each part of the LA plans in WH, to continue moving him along in high school LA skills as he nears graduation. Having used the plans in WG and now using the plans in the WH guide, I will share that my ds and I have enjoyed each year so much! The plans are very helpful, easy to follow, and overall quite independent. The annotating is much more than just putting notes in the margin. I have enjoyed annotating in my own books I read for many years, and my annotations are in no way of the depth that the plans in HOD's guides teach. Here is an example of what every day of annotating in the WH guide looks like (and this is taken from the first week when this skill is first introduced)...

Introduce:
Read Matthew 2:1-12. Then, read the prophecy in Micah 5:2-4 that Herod refers to when he speaks to the wise men. As you read today, think how Chapters XI-XII of Ben Hur compare to the Biblical account.
Read and Annotate: Ben Hur middle ofp. 40 – middle of p. 62 (See description of how to annotate on Day 1.)
Select: Choose a passage from today’s reading that is timeless, memorable, or worthy of rereading to copy in your Common Place Book. Passages with beautiful, significant, or vivid wording are often chosen. Beneath your entry, note the book title and speaker (for the quote).
Reflect: In your Literature Journal, write today’s date. Then, copy the final line fromp. 58 and reflect upon its meaning. Notice who speaks this line and to whom the line is directed. This line is an example of foreshadowing. It is helpful to know that Eros is the god of love, and Mars is the god of war.
Key Idea: Notice foreshadowing in the reading.

So, this teaches many important LA skills that are not taught in annotating when done in a more general way, and it has taught our son SO MUCH already! :D He LOVED the boy set of books he read in WG, and he is thoroughly enjoying the WH books as well! :D :D :D I think this will be a super plan moving forward - HTH! :D

In Christ,
Julie
Enjoyed LHTH to USII
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie

momxnine
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Re: Needing input on Writing & Lit for a 16 year old

Post by momxnine » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:47 pm

Thank you, Julie! That all sounds like a good plan. The only other thing that I wonder about is if he should do some British Lit books instead of the boy set for WG. He's read all of those and the ACE courses he's done have included some American Lit excerpts. But I wouldn't know what British Lit to even do. Thoughts?

I was disappointed to miss Carrie's call when she called this afternoon. I have one more question that I forgot to put in my first post. I called back and left another message, but if you can answer this on here, then she won't need to call me again. :D

I also need to decide about Science. He's done the Physical Science course that ACE has and started on the Chemistry course. It's SUPER hard and has lots of math (not his strong point). So I was looking into having him do the IPC course instead and counting it as Chemistry and Physics, even if it's just amounts to half credit each, plus the labs. But I can't tell if it's too close to what he's already done or not.

I was wondering if Carrie had any idea what is going to be in the American History year for Chemistry? I want something good, but just not so math intensive. I don't know if he'll be going on to college or not, he can't decide.

The other thing I have already is the Chemistry 101 DVD. He has a credit syllabus included to make it worth the whole credit, but I don't know enough about it to know if it would work or not.

So.... any thoughts on the science and British lit versus the WG boys set?
Vicki in SW. MO.
Mom of 9 (ages 14 - 35) and Grammy to 7
14 ds - Finished CTC, RTR and Rev To Rev; MTMM - Fall of 2016

Carrie
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Re: Needing input on Writing & Lit for a 16 year old

Post by Carrie » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:56 pm

momxnine,

The ladies are doing a great job of helping you talk through options. :D As Julie mentioned, we discussed your post the other night. After hearing that your son has read all of the books in the boy set of the World Geography Guide, I am thinking that he sounds like a pretty good reader. It is possible that he may need to the literature in the World History Guide instead then. To clarify, I need to ask a few questions. If you get a chance to pop back and share the answers that will help us advise you better. What has your son done for grammar in high school (or prior to high school)? What has he had as far as writing instruction in high school (or prior)? How would you describe your son as a reader? Has he earned credit in either American Literature or British Literature yet? Is this his junior year of high school? What has he had as far as science in high school? :D Are you needing any credits in history or other areas that you are looking to possibly fulfill with your HOD guide?

Once you get a chance to share, we'll have a clearer picture of what may work. :D

Blessings,
Carrie

momxnine
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:22 pm

Re: Needing input on Writing & Lit for a 16 year old

Post by momxnine » Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:29 pm

Hi Carrie,

He is an AVID reader. He loves history and historical fiction stuff. :D He's read all of the WH lit books too, except for Les Miserables because the size looks so daunting to him. lol I'll probably order your version since it's shorter. He's never done anything like annotating though.

Okay, here's what he's done over the last couple of years. We used CLE grammar until he started high school and then his first year he was using MFW Ancient History & Literature. I don't remember what it covered. Since then he's done the first three of the ACE English high school courses. They cover grammar & lit all together in the paces and it seems pretty good (except for creative writing). I know the last pace he finished he was doing adjectival and adverbial phrases and clauses and the next one (if he does it) covers nominative absolutes and a couple of other things. The last year of their grammar course is mostly British Lit, not much grammar. I don't know what other grammar there might be. He hopes there isn't any. :D

He has not had an American Lit course that is specifically Am. Lit. When I've looked at some of the lists in other Am. Lit courses, I don't think he's read as many of those particular books, as in titles like "To Kill a Mockingbird," etc.

British Lit, probably none. I wonder if I could have him do something with Shakespeare this year as my 13 year old is going through it in Res. to Ref.? I don't know what though, so I'm open to ideas if that might be a good option.

I would consider this his Junior year, yes. He wanted to be done by spring, but it's not going to happen. He still needs Algebra II and probably Trig or Business math and then at least one more science (He's done the ACE Physical Science and Biology already). He's almost done with ACE world Geography and I was thinking of having him read a couple of the books in the WG guide (the ones about world religions) to go along with his World Geography credit. He did World History and American History already, so his history is good, although I wish he could have done HOD histories. :( But my youngest will. :)

He has almost all of his electives that he needs including things like Civics, Economics, Christian Growth and a couple of bible credits. He's still going to do the logic books, including the Art of Argument and he's working through the Getting Started with Spanish book. So basically, *I* think he needs the BJU course and some more literature and definitely more writing and then figuring out the science. :)

Does that help? I *should* know how to do all of this by now since I've graduated most of my kids already, but my husband and I feel almost like we've started all over again with our youngest in using HOD and we love it! Just wish we'd used it sooner. :D
Vicki in SW. MO.
Mom of 9 (ages 14 - 35) and Grammy to 7
14 ds - Finished CTC, RTR and Rev To Rev; MTMM - Fall of 2016

Carrie
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Re: Needing input on Writing & Lit for a 16 year old

Post by Carrie » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:19 pm

momxnine,

Thanks so much for being willing to share a bit more about your son and his past academic studies. As we get to the final years of high school, it can be interesting to make sure our students get what they need (and what we want them to have) by the time they graduate! :D

So as not to confuse our board readers who are coming up through HOD, I'll begin by qualifying my suggestions by saying that these suggestions are unique to your situation (because your son is coming to HOD close to the end of his homeschool journey). With that in mind, based on what you've shared thus far, it sounds like your son could use British Literature to finish out this year (to earn 1/2 credit in Brit. Lit.) and American Literature next year (to earn 1 full credit in Am. Lit.) to finish out the English portion of his transcript (along with grammar and writing) next year. :D

Our American History guide that will be coming out in installments this fall (beginning in early September) will include a year of American Literature. The guide will be written in real-time, like our current World History Guide, so your son wouldn't be working ahead to finish Am. Lit. but instead would finish when the guide finishes in May. You would receive the plans in installments all throughout the year. If you are thinking that your son would be on a regular schedule for his senior year, then it would be my recommendation that he do the American Literature in that guide (along with the writing that will be scheduled in that guide) for his senior year. You could weigh whether you would also want him to do the Rod and Staff English 8 (first half) which will be scheduled in that guide as well. I think Rod and Staff is oustanding and that students benefit from any time spent with that program prior to graduation, no matter their grammar background, however you would be a better judge of whether your son should do the Rod and Staff portion of plans as a senior (twice weekly) or not. :D

With the American Literature taken care of in the manner I've shared above that leaves British Literature to cover in the remaining semester he has to devote to literature in his junior year. While it would be fine to do the BJU in the World Geography Guide, there isn't really a ton of British Literature in that particular text (not enough to award credit in Brit. Lit. anyway). Also, since your son has read most of the boy set of books in the World Geography guide, then simply reading the British titles in that set along with the BJU won't help much either. Plus, to cover all of the BJU book in one semester would be daunting (if you added additional Brit. titles, which you would need to do in order to claim Brit. Lit. credit). This is why I am leaning toward having your son do the World History Guide's literature instead but I am thinking he would need to do only the British Lit. titles. This would work since he will not be using the rest of the guide in its ordinary way. To do this, your son would do only the following titles:

Julius Caesar (with audio)
Pearl Maiden
The Story of King Arthur and His Knights
A Man for All Seasons
The Scarlet Pimpernel
* Pilgrim's Progress (see explanation for this title below)

He would follow the plans sequentially to do the books in the order I've listed above. This would give him a formal British Literature study written directly to him and have him reading real books along with it. Even if he has read these titles, to do them along with the plans in our guide would be a nice change of pace and teach a different set of skills then the PACES. :D

To round out his British Literature credit, I would also have him do the Pilgrim's Progress study that is scheduled once weekly in the World History Guide. I would have him do it twice weekly instead in order to cover the entire book by mid-May of this year. So, Pilgrim's Progress would also be added to his Brit. Lit. list. It is a wonderful study, which would really be of benefit to your son, even if he has already read Pilgrim's Progress. He would just do it according to the plans in our guide. 8)

As far as the witing goes, I would be inclined to have your son do the Essentials in Writing that is scheduled in the World History Guide as well. You could select the units from the EIW that you feel your son most needs this year to finish out his year. I would recommend including the research paper that is done last in EIW, along with any essay types you feel your son has not done previously. Then, the following year, I would recommend doing the writing that will be scheduled in our American History Guide, following the schedule in that guide. :D

To finish out this year of grammar, you could either do the rest of the ACE PACES and then take a break from grammar, or you could instead do the last half of Rod and Staff English 7 doing it twice weekly to finish out this year. Either would work. Next year, I would be inclined to do the first half of English 8 as it will be scheduled in the American History guide. :D

As far as science goes, I see that you have a challenge in this area, as you have a semester to fill here and then next year to plan before your son is done. For starters, I would plan to do the chemistry that will be in the new American History Guide next year (even though he has begun Chemistry this year). I will be sharing sneak peeks for this coming up in April or so; however, from what you've shared thus far about chemistry, I do think the Chemistry in that guide would be a great fit for your son. This would also mean he could just follow the plans for that in our American History Guide as written (and you wouldn't need to come up with anything on your own). Since he would be doing the Lit. and writing from that guide his senior year, you would have the guide anyway, making it a good choice to do the Chemistry in that guide too. :D

With that in mind, you would have one semester to fill this year for science. I would be inclined to do as you suggested and do the 6 pacworks from IPC that deal with physics (and omit the 6 pacworks that deal with chemistry). You could also add the Physics 101 DVDs and then award a 1/2 credit in Introduction to Physics upon completion. Some people, including the publisher of Pacworks, feel that you can award a full credit in Introduction to Physics for completion of what I've mentioned. I feel that is a stretch, but in a pinch, you could possibly list it that way (as long as you clarify that it is an Introduction to Physics rather than a full-blown physics course). This would take care of your science dilemma. 8)

I would lean toward not doing Physics as a lab science, as long as your son has had labs for Physical Science and Biology (and he will have labs through HOD's chemistry). If he hasn't had labs the other years of science, he will need to do the Microphys Sci Kit that we carry along with the PACworks Physics that I mentioned above. We have matched these MicroPhys Sci labs to the Pac Works readings in our World Geography Guide. You could just do the labs that match the Physics Pacworks (and omit the chemistry labs that are scheduled to coordinate with the Chemistry pacworks). However, to do this lab matching you wold need the World Geography guide's plans. This is why I would lean away from doing the physics as a lab-based course unless you truly need the lab credit. :wink:

Of course, if you wanted to have your son do the World Religions and Cultures' study in the World Geography Guide, and also are considering having him do the Art of Argument, then it may be worthwhile to have the World Geography guide as well. Since your son is an avid reader, he could perhaps do two days of World Religions... each day to finish it in a semester and do Art of Argument daily. This would give him a 1/2 credit in World Religions and Cultures and a 1/4 up to 1/2 credit in Logic (depending on if he's ever done any other logic type course like the Fallacy Detective). On a sidenote, I wouldn't recommend just reading the World Religion and Culture's books without the HOD plans and the World Religion Notebook, simply due to the fact that there are some areas that need discussion and Biblical references so as not to confuse students as they study other religions. These helps are provided in the guide and the notebook and are essential to the study in my opinion. :)

These, of course, are just my thoughts as to how you could gain the credits you mentioned by graduation. Feel free to share your thoughts!

Blessings,
Carrie

momxnine
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:22 pm

Re: Needing input on Writing & Lit for a 16 year old

Post by momxnine » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:57 pm

Wow. Thanks, Carrie!

I want to make sure I'm understanding you right.... You're suggesting to only do the WH guide instead of WG? And not do the BJU book at all? I guess the reason I thought the BJU book might be good was to make sure he knew "how" to analyze a book, but maybe that is covered throughout the literature lessons anyway? Is annotating covered in the WH guide?

So for the rest of this year, can I order a WH guide so he can do the British Lit? I know they're not completely put together yet, will that be a problem? And then I would also add the Pilgrim's Progress study and instead of grade 10 EIW, do the Grade 11? I have the R & S Gr. 7, so I'll look at it and see if that would work for the rest of this year as you suggested.

Science..... Will it matter if he does the IPC Physics before doing Chemistry and without the labs? I'm sure he'd like that. :) He did do the Physical Science and Biology labs that ACE has, so those have been covered.
Vicki in SW. MO.
Mom of 9 (ages 14 - 35) and Grammy to 7
14 ds - Finished CTC, RTR and Rev To Rev; MTMM - Fall of 2016

Carrie
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Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:39 pm

Re: Needing input on Writing & Lit for a 16 year old

Post by Carrie » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:22 pm

momxnine,

In answer to your questions, based on what your son has done in the past in language arts, I am suggesting that he do the World History Guide's literature and writing (and possibly grammar) instead of the World Geography's Guide's BJU and writing. The reasons for this shift in my thinking is that your son would actually be beyond the BJU scheduled in the World Geography Guide and also would benefit from a real books approach with literary follow-ups (in contrast to the short story/excerpt literary studies he has likely had through ACE in recent years). The examples that were shared earlier in the thread actually came from the World History Guide, and annotating is a part of that guide. I also think the writing will be a good fit in the World History Guide as well, since your son technically is an 11th grader, as long as you select those essays (and research paper) that your son needs most to finish out this year. He would watch the DVD sessions for EIW for the lessons you select and do the follow-up assignments. 8) So, yes, he would be doing the Essentials in Writing Grade 11, but only a semester's worth. :D

The World History Guide is complete through Unit 17 right now, so you will get all 17 completed units when your order the World History Guide. Then, you will continue to receive installments for the rest of the guide through mid-May this year (at which point you will receive the complete guide and need to mail back all installments - so be sure to keep the installments). This will suit your schedule well, as all of the titles that I listed for your son to cover for British Literature are in the first 19 weeks of the guide. The first 17 sessions of Pilgrim's Progress are also scheduled in the 17 completed units of World History thus far, with the remaining sessions coming in the installments. Since your son is starting from the beginning, doing two sessions of Pilgrim's Progress a week, it will take him awhile to catch us. He could always downshift to once weekly sessions of Pilgrim's Progress once he does catch us to finish out the year. :D

As far as science goes, it would be fine to do an Introductory Physics before chemistry, since the Physics in the IPC is not math-based. You can choose to do it without labs, since he will have 3 other lab sciences by graduation. I would for sure add the Physics 101 DVDs by Wes Olson to the study (just to watch).

Hope this helps!

Blessings,
Carrie

momxnine
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:22 pm

Re: Needing input on Writing & Lit for a 16 year old

Post by momxnine » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:10 pm

Thank you, Carrie, for taking so much time to write all of that. :) Now to figure out for sure what to do. I *think* I know, but he did already do some balking when I told him, so we'll see what "dad" says. :D

*I* think it all sounds great, but he "just wants to get done." We'll see....

Great words!

Blessings to you and hopefully I'll get to meet you this year at a convention. I never got to last year. We went to the Arlington convention even though we live in Missouri. :D I talked LOTS to Julie and to Mike and was super glad that we made the effort to go to the convention. :)
Vicki in SW. MO.
Mom of 9 (ages 14 - 35) and Grammy to 7
14 ds - Finished CTC, RTR and Rev To Rev; MTMM - Fall of 2016

momxnine
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:22 pm

BOX DAY!

Post by momxnine » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:06 pm

I love getting HOD boxes... :D A big thank you to Carrie for helping me figure out what I needed for my son. I got all the British Lit books, including the Pilgrim's Progress study, the Essential in Writing, the WH guide and the IPC physics books. (I unfortunately had to get those from another company because I only needed the physics portion AND I needed two sets of those!) I ordered the MicroPhySci kit too though so my boys can do the experiments. And of course I got a couple of extra's for us.... Shane & Les Miserables. I love books.... lol
Vicki in SW. MO.
Mom of 9 (ages 14 - 35) and Grammy to 7
14 ds - Finished CTC, RTR and Rev To Rev; MTMM - Fall of 2016

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