DD placed into Bigger but struggling -- is this normal?

[jenn in nc]

My nine year old daughter is in Bigger this year, Unit 5 right now, and she is really struggling so far. This is essentially our first year with HOD so she did not have the advantage of the preparation that I'm sure Beyond would have given her. However, I was very careful with the placement chart when I was purchasing our programs and she placed into Bigger really solidly. (Actually, I was initially considering Preparing for her, but some wise soul on this board advised me against that ill-fated path, thank goodness.)

Our biggest difficulty is that she can't seem to narrate the history - not at all. She has had practice narrating before so this is not a new skill for her, but she can't seem to get the hang of the Eggleston book. Journeys in Time is a little better, but overall she almost always tells me she doesn't understand what I've read to her.

The beginning of the R&S English book was all review for her but now that we are into the second section she is often confused. She rarely understands the teaching until I reword everything. Then, in the writing, she makes constant mistakes, for example leaving off periods or capital letters; things that should be fairly automatic for her by now.

I have wondered briefly if I should purchase Beyond and move her back, but there are other areas in Bigger that she does very well. She can spell just about any word; with almost no study at all she gets every word right in both the spelling lists and the dictation. Cheerful Cursive is going really well; she loves it and her cursive is good for her age, I think. She does well with timeline, mapping, vocab, science.

I'm thinking of dropping to half-speed in Bigger for a while; not really sure how that works but seems like an option worth considering. Would love to know if any of you ladies have any ideas.

ETA that as I'm looking over Beyond, the history seems like a perfect fit for her, and we actually already own most of the books so I wouldn't have much to purchase besides the guide book and one or two others. But would Beyond move too slowly for her in other areas? She would definitely not want to give up cursive; and the spelling would surely be too simple.

Thanks!
Jenn

[8arrows]

You could most certainly use Beyond for the history and then continue with the spelling and cursive from Bigger. That would not be a problem. Slowing down to half speed until she gets used to the program is definitely another good option. Go with your mom feelings on what would be the best fit!

[mom23]

Lots of Moms use the "left side"-by that I mean the History, Science, Bible, etc.-from a lower guide and use the "right side"-basically the 3R's-from a higher guide. It works! The good news is that as you progress through the guides that seems to be less and less an issue and eventually you'll find yourself working out of only one guide, without holding back any areas in the process.

I also want to say that if you feel Bigger is a good placement, it just may be that she's struggling with the Eggleston books. I remember my dd really not liking the History selections in Bigger, it was just something we had to learn to work through, even though they were never "favorites". A wise piece of advice I got was to model the narrations for my dd when she was struggling with them. We spent a few weeks where I read the selection to her, then handed her the manual and she played teacher by asking me any questions that were in the box-so if it said to narrate, I got to narrate! It would be a great opportunity for her to look at the narration skills list in the appendix and give you any pointers...she's learning what makes a good narration good! I struggled with the idea, thinking I was just giving her the answers, until someone pointed out to me that in a classroom setting no one particular student is expected to know every single question the teacher asks; there is a whole room full of other students who can model the answer until the student gains enough confidence in their abilities to give it a shot. For our home this worked beautifully! Another favorite way of ours to narrate is to take turns. If the student doesn't remember the beginning, I may start a narration, and then suddenly stop, often mid-sentence, and point to them to take over. I allow them to point it back to me if they get stuck. Again, they are learning how to do it, it does not just come naturally to many of us! They often just need a hint to get the ball rolling and then they can run with it.

As far as the grammar goes, just keep plugging away. It will be reviewed again and again, so if they don't get what a noun is right away, it will come back until eventually they remember. I feel like my dd in R&S 4 is just now beginning to grasp some of those parts of speech without saying she doesn't remember. I've learned to try to avoid re-wording everything. That gets exhausting-for me because I have to think of a new, more kid-friendly way to say everything, and for them because school takes 2 or 3 times as long when I teach them everything 2 ro 3 ways! Just kindly and patiently provide them reminders and go on to the next thing.

[glperky]

Jenn,

We started off the year in Bigger and had some of the same problems your DD is having. Up to that point my DS could narrate well, for his age, almost anything we read. However, he was really struggling with the History. I already owned all of Beyond so we went down to it for the left side of the guide and stayed on the right side of Bigger. For us, it has worked out great! And my DS is enjoying school once again.

[jenn in nc]

Thanks, everyone, for taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences. Still thinking this through, and I really appreciate your help.

We started off the year in Bigger and had some of the same problems your DD is having. Up to that point my DS could narrate well, for his age, almost anything we read. However, he was really struggling with the History. I already owned all of Beyond so we went down to it for the left side of the guide and stayed on the right side of Bigger. For us, it has worked out great! And my DS is enjoying school once again.

Yes that's exactly it! She has always narrated well before. At first I thought she just wasn't paying close enough attention due to not being interested in the content, but when we got to the section on Pocahontas and she still couldn't narrate, I knew there was more going on than that. I wish I had the Beyond guidebook here so I could take a look at it.

We spent a few weeks where I read the selection to her, then handed her the manual and she played teacher by asking me any questions that were in the box-so if it said to narrate, I got to narrate! It would be a great opportunity for her to look at the narration skills list in the appendix and give you any pointers...she's learning what makes a good narration good! I struggled with the idea, thinking I was just giving her the answers, until someone pointed out to me that in a classroom setting no one particular student is expected to know every single question the teacher asks; there is a whole room full of other students who can model the answer until the student gains enough confidence in their abilities to give it a shot. For our home this worked beautifully! Another favorite way of ours to narrate is to take turns. If the student doesn't remember the beginning, I may start a narration, and then suddenly stop, often mid-sentence, and point to them to take over. I allow them to point it back to me if they get stuck. Again, they are learning how to do it, it does not just come naturally to many of us! They often just need a hint to get the ball rolling and then they can run with it.

Oh I love this! Such great advice. Writing this down!

I've learned to try to avoid re-wording everything. That gets exhausting-for me because I have to think of a new, more kid-friendly way to say everything, and for them because school takes 2 or 3 times as long when I teach them everything 2 ro 3 ways! Just kindly and patiently provide them reminders and go on to the next thing.

Goodness, yes, it takes forever and makes me feel that I might as well not even have the book there. I like the idea of just reminding and reminding in a gentle way.

Slowing down to half speed until she gets used to the program is definitely another good option. Go with your mom feelings on what would be the best fit!

My mom feelings are confused! Although ... I have to admit that this is the option I'm leaning towards, because I already own everything and there is so much about Bigger that really is a good fit for her. I'm not sure if Beyond includes notebooking like Bigger? She would miss that, and the vocabulary, and both of those are tied to the history.

On the other hand the history in Beyond does look to be at the perfect level.

It seems like you guys are saying that either option could work, so I just need to pray through it and figure out what would be the right answer for her. Thanks again for your help, you guys are great!

~Jenn

[mom23]

No notebooking in Beyond; or vocabulary, either. Although, either one of them could be added, I suppose if your dd was wanting that. Yep, praying about it is the best idea! I'm doing lots of that, myself, lately, for our homeschool plan this year!

[farmfamily]

I wonder whether she might just need to get used to the Eggleston books? My 7 year old had trouble in the beginning of Bigger understanding what was going on in those books. She has never been one to be afraid of interrupting to say, "What does that mean?" At that point I explain it to her. I don't re-word anything unless she asks. She used to do that a lot - in the early units I would be stopping several times in every Eggleston reading to explain things at her requests. Now (Unit 12) she only very rarely asks a question. Her comprehension has definitely improved because her narrations are good (I only make her narrate half of the reading because her sister narrates the other half). I'm not sure if this is "right," but I also tell my girls before I start that I will be asking them to narrate.

I know Carrie does not advise paraphrasing the material, but I have always felt that in answer to a question from the child this is okay. This is a post that Carrie responded to about the Eggleston books:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7058&hilit=Eggleston

I would think that you should keep going with Bigger, half speed if necessary, because if she is doing well with vocabulary and notebooking, etc., it sounds like she really is ready for Bigger. Just when it is the day to narrate history (I think that's only once a week), let her know ahead of time that she will narrate, and allow her to interrupt with questions only if she feels really lost. You could also try just having her narrate a shorter portion at a time. I think you said she is doing fine narrating everything else. It sounds like she just needs to get used to the old fashioned language of Eggleston, and going back to Beyond wouldn't help her with that. I bet that if you plug away this problem will eventually resolve itself.

My 7 year-old told me recently that she likes the Eggleston books better than the history books from Beyond, which was a surprise to me, since the language of the Beyond books is much easier.

I am not sure why your dd is not understanding the Rod and Staff English since the language seems pretty straightforward in that. Is it perhaps hard for her to stay focused during the lesson? Perhaps you could have her read aloud some of it. I always have my kids read the examples themselves. I haven't found it necessary to re-word the lessons. Maybe you should just present the lesson without any re-wording and then try the oral questions. If she doesn't get it, direct her to re-read the relevant portion of the lesson. One thing about R&S is that it's quite repetitive, so if she doesn't get it the first time around, she will later! As for periods and capital letters, my daughter forgets them all the time too. I am very confident that with constant reminders she will eventually remember this herself. hth

[jenn in nc]

I wonder whether she might just need to get used to the Eggleston books?

You may be right. Today we read the Eggleston chapter on Miles Standish, and it was a longer selection than what is usually assigned. I wasn't expecting anything to be different, but I tried reading at a slower pace, and pausing for frequent small narrations, and she basically got it. I'm going to give it a few more days and see how it goes.

Thinking this situation through has been so helpful for me though. I have a lot of kids and for so long we've done a lot of our schooling together. That definitely has its benefits, but I think it allowed some skills for some of my kids to sort of fall through the cracks over time. Maybe it is easier for me to miss that some of my kids are not continuing to gain ground in the essentials when I'm fairly focused on the group as a whole? I don't know. At any rate, moving to HOD has been so good for my kids. I've been able to really focus in on what each of them individually need right now, the skills that they each personally need to develop.

The part about her not really "getting" R&S is odd, because you're right, it is worded in a simple and accessible way in my opinion. I really think after reflecting on it more that she just needs to learn to give her full attention to the task. Another skill we need to work on, but she can do it. I looked at the grammar in Beyond and I'm convinced it would be too light for her. She's ready for daily grammar. And having her read over the relevant portion of the lesson might be just the thing to help her learn to give her full attention.

I like knowing that it is an option to move her back to the history in Beyond if it turns out we need to do that, but I think I'm going to press forward for a bit. Thanks so much for helping me talk this through.

~Jenn

[my3sons]

It sounds like you came to a good conclusion here! Keep in mind that learning to narrate from longer selections, with very few pictures, with more of a classic sounding book, with a single author who is passionate about the topic of his books (a.k.a. Eggleston ) - is a skill that takes time (as in a good long portion of the guide) to grow into. This is different from "Beyond Little Hearts..." in which the parent is partnered with the student, helping them narrate. The reading material for history in Beyond is easier as well - shorter sections, more pictures, less classic sounding, less author-style focused. I think if you just go into this next part of Bigger Hearts knowing this is going to be an area to continue to work on growing this year, you'll probably begin to see real growth over time. Keep in mind, narrating is a skill that students can seem to 'have down pat' with easier, younger books, only to show itself as a skill that needs to be worked on again with harder, older books. I've seen that with my oldest ds, and he is now able in the WG to narrate on just about anything. I am seeing it with my CTC ds, who seems to have the opposite struggle than my oldest ds had with narrating (older ds struggled with remembering to say names, places, middle ds struggles with his narration being very choppy, not always very sequential). Anyway, just try to positively accept her narrations with encouragement and modeling, giving her one thing to work on each time. For my oldest ds, he worked on remembering names and places for years. He does it quite effortlessly now, so take heart!!! With time and practice, dc really do become excellent narrators that can narrate successfully on just about any kind, level, and length of book - provided it's living. HTH with the narrations!

In Christ,
Julie

[jenn in nc]

Keep in mind, narrating is a skill that students can seem to 'have down pat' with easier, younger books, only to show itself as a skill that needs to be worked on again with harder, older books.

Yes I think you are right. She has heard me read harder books aloud but never been required to narrate them without a lot of help from all the older kids in the room. So in that sense, she is kind of "new" at this. Just realizing that helps me to not worry about it, but rather to just keep working on it little by little. I am slowing down some, we're just doing what we can each day within a reasonable time frame for a newly-nine year old girl. Already this week I'm seeing some improvement. I went into this year thinking that she could have placed into Preparing but that I had put her in Bigger just to make sure all those necessary skills were cemented... and what I've discovered is that she is not as comfortable with these skills as I thought she was. The HOD curriculum has really flushed out some areas we need to concentrate on in her. That's good!

Thank you for the encouragement all of you have offered to me. It was just what I needed. I feel really comfortable with moving forward, more slowly, until she is ready to go full speed.

Jenn

[kayrenee]

Jenn, I could've written your posts in this thread almost word for word. (You can see in my signature line that I have older children, as well.) I gave up on HOD after I had the same exact experience with Bigger two years ago that you're having with your daughter now, and some of the other guides, too. I wish I had stayed with the program long enough to work out the kinks. We are now coming back to it -- again -- but with a different attitude this time around, and I'm hoping and praying that we can find our groove and really make it successful. In the past, I didn't do what you're doing which is to come to the board and ask questions to figure out how to get over the rough spots.

My youngest will be 11 tomorrow, but I still think of her as being about 9 because of LDs due to a speech disorder. She is All.Over.The.Place in skills, and she still likes to play 7-8-9 year old games, too. And yet, at the same time, she's "demanding" more independent work, and to be treated like the age that she is! She's at a point where I can really see maturity in her, and I think I feel more certain than ever NOW that as she's maturing, we can overcome her weak areas with diligence and the right advice. So I really, really appreciate you putting your struggles out there and asking questions! Hang in there.

[MelInKansas]

You've already received a lot of good advice and it sounds like you've figured out how to move forward which is great. I find great advice and support on this board, as well as it always helps me think through whatever I am thinking about.

I just wanted to encourage you (hopefully) and share that my DD struggled with narration too. And she has done all of the previous guides before Bigger. I started doing as someone else here suggested. I tell her before I start reading that she is going to be narrating after the reading. We've also reviewed the Narration guidelines in the back a number of times. In fact, I was not helping because I wasn't listening to her like I was supposed to be either! I would jump in instead of giving her time to think or simply asking "then what happened?"

Narration still isn't her strongest skill but she has grown by leaps and bounds in it this year. Her ability to give detail has really grown, and she doesn't just freeze up when asked to retell it. And I see it has grown her in other things too. I so wish someone had worked on this skill with me too, as I am naturally weak in that area too.

[jenn in nc]

Melissa, I definitely need to go over those narration guidelines in the back of the Bigger manual again. Thank you for reminding me that they are there! I think I'll photocopy them and put them in my notebook ... well maybe I should check first, I wonder what the copyright is on that. Anyway, it is encouraging to me to hear that your daughter struggled too but is improving now. I think my daughter is improving just a bit since I've implemented some of the advice I got here. I know we'll still have rough days, but I feel a LOT better able to help her through them now than I did before.

kayrenee, you have no idea how stressed I was about even asking these questions on the board to begin with! It was so nice of you to tell me that was the right thing to do! I was just sure everyone out there in HOD-cyber-land was frustrated with me for asking a question that has probably been asked a thousand times before. But everyone has been so helpful and willing to share their experiences and advice with me. Thank you!

[annaz]

Here's my two cents. My belief is that the skill-building moves from guide to guide. So if you've finished Beyond (or any guide) or are even just starting out in a guide, that what is contained in your current guide in the first week, will be what you need to achieve by year's end. No one miraculously gains that many skills between guides, but it's the skills to build up to and perfect by the time you move to the next guide. Look at it as a goal. You'll know that if they couldn't do those skills in the first week or the first semester, those daily goals on what you are to achieve will be met anywhere during the year, whether it be by semester, by 3rd quarter or years end. Work up to those goals. I think that's why so many bow out. Carrie had said to give a program 3 months. I can attest to this every year of using HOD. The kinks are out with mom and kids, and it should start to flow more easily to start really perfecting those skills required of the guide.

If we were perfect in those skills right away in every guide, then there wouldn't be any skill-building, would there?

[kayrenee]

Here's my two cents. My belief is that the skill-building moves from guide to guide. So if you've finished Beyond (or any guide) or are even just starting out in a guide, that what is contained in your current guide in the first week, will be what you need to achieve by year's end. No one miraculously gains that many skills between guides, but it's the skills to build up to and perfect by the time you move to the next guide. Look at it as a goal. You'll know that if they couldn't do those skills in the first week or the first semester, those daily goals on what you are to achieve will be met anywhere during the year, whether it be by semester, by 3rd quarter or years end. Work up to those goals. I think that's why so many bow out. Carrie had said to give a program 3 months. I can attest to this every year of using HOD. The kinks are out with mom and kids, and it should start to flow more easily to start really perfecting those skills required of the guide.

If we were perfect in those skills right away in every guide, then there wouldn't be any skill-building, would there?

I think I FINALLY understand. I have tried several different levels of HOD with two different children, and never did understand that they're not supposed to be able to do everything well at the beginning... until now. I think, if I'm understanding your post correctly, Annaz? If so, then that explains why I kept wanting to love HOD and make it work. I knew there was *something* about it that I've been continually drawn to. I guess I was expecting the beginning of the year to be easy -- all review, the way most curriculums do it -- and then it would get progressively harder throughout the year. But you're saying no, that it's just the opposite, right?

That would explain what is meant by each guide "building" upon the previous guide. If a student did Beyond, for example, then the END of the year would be easier for the child than the beginning... so that when the child begins Bigger, they HAVE the skills necessary to be ABLE to begin Bigger... even if it's not easy for them yet. But it'll GET easier as the year goes on.... if the parent doesn't give up too soon as I did.

Is that right?