Need some advice on combining

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christyg

Need some advice on combining

Post by christyg » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:09 pm

Hi! I need some advice from you on combining for next year. :wink: In the fall I will have a 10 year old daughter and an 8 year old son. We have always used HOD from preschool up thru Preparing this year. I have had no problem time wise doing 2 guides separately up to this point, especially since my daughter is getting more independent. :wink:

Here is my dilemma. I would really like to combine the two for history and science. Not for time purposes, but only because I would like to be studying the same time period in history and the same science topics, just for simplicity in things like field trips, experiments, extra classes (like a dissection class at the aquarium) and such. Honestly, my son has been listening in secretly to my daughters stories for the last 2 years thinking that I don't know he's there. Ha! :lol:

The only thing that we use outside of HOD is BJU for English and Math.

I started looking at other history and science curriculums like Mystery of History and Apologia (which I see that HOD uses some of these in the upcoming guides). Honestly these looked good, but not as good as anything HOD offers. :wink: I REALLY want to stick with the book selections HOD has.

Anyway, long story short, if any of you have combined your 2nd and 4th graders into CTC together for history and science ONLY, how did you do it? How did you modify the notebooking assignments, etc? His listening and narration are great (better than hers, actually), but handwriting not so much.

I will be ok to keep them uncombined if I have to, but I would really LOVE to simplify a little and combine those 2 areas. Thanks!

Christy :)

my3sons
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Location: South Dakota

Re: Need some advice on combining

Post by my3sons » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:20 pm

Hi christyg! :D I have to honestly say I cannot imagine trying do do CTC with an 8 yo! :shock: We have done HOD from the start, and I still ended up needing to slow CTC down to half-speed for my 9 yo (who just turned 10 yo). He reads above grade level and has no trouble writing even up to a page on notebook paper, but half-speed is just right for him. I did do CTC with my oldest ds when he was 9 1/2 yo, and he did very well full-speed with it - so I know all dc are different. But, 8 yo is very, very young for the skills in CTC, as well as the maturity content! What guide did your 8 yo do last year? When you look at the placement chart, where does he place? Here is a past post comparing the skills in PHFHG to CTC, so you can look at the CTC skills with your 8 yo in mind...

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12582&p=90658#p90658

It would actually be easier to go back to combine, if that is what you are wanting. If your ds did Beyond Little Hearts last year, you could combine the two of them in Bigger Hearts, and have your dd do the extensions, and choose a different Storytime set than you used last time. However, if your dd is well-placed in CTC, this would be a big step back. Honestly, I would keep teaching them at their appropriate levels, and combine them for Storytime and DITHOR. You could base your field trips on any of those books or genres in common. Placement is one of those things you "don't know what ya got til it's gone!" I'd not rock the boat and have ds in tears over being challenged way too much, or have dd frustrated by not being challenged enough, or have YOU being stressed trying to add to or detract from one set of plans to make it work for both when really... each of them is thriving already. :D Guides that promise combining dc successfully in wide age ranges often leave somebody out in the cold... either the younger child because they can't read, write, or understand the things in the guide and are often off just coloring... or the older child because they can't soar because they are always waiting on younger sibling to attempt to catch up or are always listening to mom read because younger sibling still needs that. Sounds like you have a good thing going - I'd keep enjoying it! :D

In Christ,
Julie
Enjoyed LHTH to USII
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie

MomtoJGJE
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Location: Gastonia, NC

Re: Need some advice on combining

Post by MomtoJGJE » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:53 am

Honestly, I don't base our field trip stuff and extra classes etc on what they are doing in their guide.

I figure if they've already studied it, then they'll help solidify their knowledge by making it more real. If they are currently studying it, then it will help them see what's happening. If they're going to study it, it's a preview of what's to come and they can draw on their memories to help store information.

For extra classes... our extra classes are with our church homeschool group... I basically just choose what I'd like them to have more information or a different view of. This year, Julianna (LHFHG) took Folk Tales and Fairy Tales because I thought she'd like it. Grace (just finished Beyond and started Bigger) took Early American History. It helped her with what we are studying and also filled in some gaps. Jayden (finishing Preparing and starting CTC in May) took US Geography and Ancient Egypt. She really loved being able to see the connections when she studied things in Preparing and I'm excited to see her making even more connections in CTC. US Geography was for fun because she likes geography and she has taken classes with this teacher before and knows her well. Any other classes are extra... like sports or music.

I have a second and fourth grader. I cannot imagine them both being in CTC. Like I said, we are just starting CTC in May... It looks to be quite a step up from Preparing and I know my second grader is not ready for Preparing, even though she's doing Bigger with no trouble at all. Though I did realize this week that I totally have been skipping over the copying the Bible verse each week part... so making her do even more writing is not going to be fun. And we haven't done timeline yet because I kept forgetting to buy a new printer cartridge to be able to print out the timeline... we'll be starting that next week.

mofbethany
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:27 pm

Re: Need some advice on combining

Post by mofbethany » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:42 am

I think you should go with your gut on this one. If you think your son is ready for CTC (maybe tweaked a bit) then he probably is. Here is our story:

We used HOD for 3 years, starting in K for my oldest with LHFHG. This year, my 8yo would have been in Preparing and my 6yo in Beyond. The problem was, my 6yo honestly remembered most of the stories and events covered in Beyond. He is a gifted student and has an incredible memory if he is interested in a subject. When my older DD was in Beyond, he became obsessed with American History (yes, at the age of 4-5). By the time he went through LHFHG and sat in on her Bigger, he knew more than most adults on the subject. I did not want to do another repeat year for him, so I considered placing them both in Preparing, tweaking some assignments. I posted my idea on this board, and got a series of responses similar to the ones you are getting. I highly respect the ladies that use HOD as written and go through multiple guides, and I know the responses were well intentioned. But the feedback was so negative and combining was so important to me that I ended up using a different curriculum this year. It has been wonderful for my kids to be doing the same time period, because they naturally learn together. It has also made it easier on me for read alouds, projects, and fieldtrips. It also allowed me to do picture study, composer study, latin, and nature study with them more frequently. And, because we are doing the same bible study all together, we had some incredible discussions about the Word where my younger children really benefitted from hearing the input of my oldest, and vice versa.

We are considering going back to HOD, but using it like TOG or MFW, doing one guide all together (based on the level of my oldest, not my youngest) and perhaps adding in extra independent reading. For the youngers, I will likely take a more CM approach and stick to oral narrations, skipping any writing/notebooking assignments, or add in projects that I plan. I don't mind putting in the extra work. But the reading assignments themselves are not "too mature" or "too advanced" for younger kids. Look at the choices that CM herself used, or look at programs like Ambleside Online. Young kids can easily listen to and take in high level literature. In retrospect, I know my 6 yo son would have done fine with Preparing, excelled even. Every child is different, and you know your children and their abilities better than anyone else.

Carrie
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Re: Need some advice on combining

Post by Carrie » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:20 pm

Christy,

One thing I think all of us go through as our kiddos are getting older and are gaining independence is that our momma's heart longs to stay with our oldest and keep on learning and sharing with that child (as the subject matter just gets so interesting that we don't want to allow that child to head off without us)! :wink: Yet, as our children mature it is so important to allow them to be more mature and to treat them in that manner without having little ears listening in to all of the more grown-up topics and heart issues that come along with that maturity. :D It is also so important to give our littler ones the same focused attention that our older ones received, and having an older one moving into the guides from CTC on up allow us to do just that! This is because as our older ones take over more of their own readings, we have more time to spend with just our little ones... bonding and making individual memories with them too. :D

You will find this to be very true as you head into CTC on up, as these guides are definitely written with the target age range on the guide in mind and are meant to let our kiddos head off more on their own. :D This means that we're not writing with an eye toward kiddos beneath the age range, but instead are really targeting the range of ages on the guide both in ability and in maturity. :D This makes our guides really fit a narrower age range well, and also make the guides speak to a more clearly defined stage or age that the child is in at that time. So, if you choose to have a young one (beneath the target age range of the guide) listen in, you'll find over time that you're having to read aloud material we never planned to be read aloud (simply to keep your young one in the loop). :wink: You'll also be exposing your child to content that we never intended for a child beneath the age range of the guide to be hearing, simply due to the maturity needed to handle the subject matter in the guide. :wink:

Another thing to ponder when looking at placement is how much spiritual maturity and depth of faith a child should have before being exposed to the content in each guide. In my mind, it is very important for a child to have an excellent foundation in the Bible and in what he/she believes before heading into anything involving ancient history and the Reformation! :D This means that kiddos beneath the age range of a guide will also not have the spiritual maturity we are looking for them to have in place prior to moving into the historical time period in the guide. This is really something that easily gets overlooked in placement but that makes a huge difference in a child's reaction and understanding of many difficult times in history! :shock:

So, while I can understand the pull to want to combine your kiddos for unity in your history study, I also want to encourage you that listening in to an older child's guide leaves out much of the experience we have planned for that child to gain from using a particular guide. :wink: As an example for you to ponder from my own experience, I'll share that my oldest son did Sonlight Core 1 as a first grader. As a part of that core, he was to listen to A Child's History of the World. My oldest was one of those kiddos who read at age 4 and was able to read huge classic chapter books off his dad's shelf (like the unabridged copy of Moby Dick) before he was turning 7. Of course, I took this book away from him mid-way through, and told him daddy's shelf was off-limits, but my oldest son was just one of those amazing readers! :D

So, as we journeyed through grade 1 of Sonlight, he read more and more of A Child's History of the World himself. He had a great understanding of the world and could really comprehend the readings, so we kept on going. As a couple of years passed with Sonlight, however, I realized that the subject matter just kept getting harder, more violent, and more mature. I began asking whether just because my son "could" read this type of more mature material, whether he really "should" read that type of material. By the time we were in third grade, my philosophy was shifting drastically, and I was realizing that there were many things that required a depth of faith he didn't have (at age 6, or 7, or 8, etc.) to bring to the study of those types of books. I also made a shift away from Sonlight for this very reason. There is much more to reading than simply being able to read and comprehend! Maturity plays a huge role, and even mature kiddos need to grow up to really "take in" what they're reading on a deeper level! :D

So, my next choice was to use Ambleside Online. We did years 3, 4, 5, and part of 6 in full. While we moved to a more CM approach with Ambleside, and the readings were less lengthy, we still ran into much maturity needed in the readings. Books that would have been a joy for an older reader, were so-so for my older son. He used Ambleside on grade level and had no problems with the level of readings, but in looking back I can see now that reading books like the unabridged Robinson Crusoe as a 4th grader left less of a good impression than they would have left if my son were much older and more mature when he read them (both in age and in his faith). :D Through Ambleside, my son read A Child's History of the World (again). What a difference in his understanding now that he had matured several years! Every light bulb in his mind was going off like crazy as the maturity he brought to the reading made a big difference in his understanding. He was making connections all over the place and his thought process was much, much deeper. :D

With this in mind, as I completed the writing of CTC for my next oldest son, I chose to leave Ambleside and have my oldest son do CTC as a 7th grader. Even though technically the readings were "below" his level by a longshot...what an amazing year he had! He deepened his faith and love for the Lord through his first really Biblical tour through the ancient time period! :D He understood and enjoyed what he read so much more than he had with Sonlight or Ambleside and his love for history and reading returned. :D

The following year I had him do RTR as an 8th grader. Again, I couldn't believe how much the study deepened and matured his faith. It was a turning point in his education and a turning point in my thinking. No longer did I think that he had to be challenged in every area to have a great learning experience. For the first time, I realized how much a mature faith meant to a study of a historical time period! :wink:

So in comparison, when we look at having your 8 year old, third grade son do CTC next year, in comparing it to the experience my 7th grade son had, you can imagine my hesitation in ever recommending that option. "Could" you do it, with a lot of tweaking? Probably. "Should" you do it? In my opinion, "could" and "should" are worlds apart, and I wouldn't advise you to do it simply based on whether it "could" be done. :wink:

What we discover time and again with HOD, is that those families who pull up a child who is outside of the age range of an HOD guide (simply to combine with an older sibling) often can only make it work in the younger guides. After that (usually by CTC) it becomes next to impossible to do this well, and they eventually either end up splitting their kiddos up and moving the young child back down to a guide where he/she truly fits on his/her own or they end up moving away from HOD. On the other hand, families who choose to combine their kiddos who are actually within the target age range of the guide are able to do this quite successfully. So, it is not that we don't recommend combining, but rather that we don't recommend combining kiddos outside of the age range of the guide.

In all honesty, since another poster mentioned that the board was very "negative" in suggesting that you don't combine a child under the age range with an older child, I would instead say we are looking toward the future and being realistic about whether this is a plan that will work for you well for the long haul. :D

The wonderful thing about posting on the author's board is that when we advise you, we are looking down the road to the "graduation from high school" finishing line with HOD, and the advice we're giving you is to keep you from burning up your HOD options and leaving you in a pickle! :D Simply listening in to an older child's reading is by no means the same as actually "doing" everything that goes with those readings. Pulling a child back a guide is hard to do, and allowing a young one to hear everything an older sibling is reading (without doing any of the skills involved in those readings) is just stealing your thunder for the future when your younger child gets there. :wink: Spiritual maturity and depth of faith play a huge role in the appropriateness of historical subject matter. I wouldn't be in too big of a hurry to grow your young one into an upper guide. He will get there sooner than you'd like already. :wink:

Here are some threads to ponder as well: :D
Why don’t you recommend having children younger than the target age range of the HOD guide simply listen in with the older student’s guide?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9341

What would my child be missing out on if I did choose to combine him/her in a guide that doesn’t fit him/her well on the placement chart?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9342

How will we be learning as a family if we do separate guides?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9343
Blessings,
Carrie

ncmomof5
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:02 pm

Re: Need some advice on combining

Post by ncmomof5 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:05 pm

I just wanted to say "Thank You", to Carrie for her response to the OP. This really helped me to understand where Carrie is coming from when she so passionately encourages parents to place each child in the guide that best fits them. It helps to know where you have come from, Carrie, and what has shaped your thought processes. Thank you very much for taking the time to lay all that out there. :D

In His love,
RuthAnn
2013 - 2014
15 yo dd -- MTMM
13 yo ds -- MTMM
12 yo ds -- finish PHFHG/CTC
9 yo ds -- finish BLHFHG/BHFHG
5.5 yo dd -- LHFHG

"Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
Matthew 6:32

christyg

Re: Need some advice on combining

Post by christyg » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:28 am

Thanks sooo much Carrie for taking precious time out of your busy day to reply to my post! I know that I speak for everyone here when I say how blessed we are by you! You gave some GREAT advice which I will prayerfully think on as I plan our next school year.

"May you be blessed by the LORD, the Maker of heaven and earth."
Psalm 115:15

Christy :)

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